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New Monkeytail

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PommyB		#-19	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 2263 Dec 1 09 4:20 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Wow, what a pretty little Monkey-Tail. I hate to use the word "pretty" when it comes to firearms, but that one really is. Judging by the sights I would think it was made for a customer in southern Africa. As you don't mention any retailer's markings, I'd assume it was special ordered direct from W-R.
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Bill Curtisra		#-18	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 2306 Dec 1 09 4:59 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Definitely made for South Africa, pity it has not got a Cape gun merchant's name on it. W. S. Curtis, A.C.I.I., Vice President (Hon.), Crimean War Research Society, HBSA (Hon. Life), Assistant Curator, Museum of the National Rifle Association, Whitworth Rifle Research Project, MLAGB, NLRC, ATRA, &c.
Adrian		#-17	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 905 Dec 2 09 1:41 AM Colour Sergeant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	A very nice looking rifle indeed - I really admire its pistol grip configuration. A.Roads
JIM 49TH VA		#-16	[-]
Corporal Posts: 72 Dec 2 09 3:47 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	What a beauty. Stock configuration very similar to my center fire MT above at http://britishmilitariafo...Monkeytail-is-Here.html. I agree, both the African sights and the old-fashioned patchbox suggest this gun was intended for an African purchaser, probably a Boer.
gcrank1		#-15	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 1092 Dec 2 09 5:36 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	A sight for every day of the week! Very handsome indeed.
Fabian23		#-14	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 774 Dec 4 09 12:51 AM Sergeant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Very nice indeed! Now we need to see if it shoots as good as it looks.... My virtual museum, growing one entry at a time. Keep checking back! http://militarygunsofeurope.eu/
Fernando		#-13	[-]
O/R Posts: 12 Dec 4 09 11:38 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Simply superb !!! Fernando
martinibelgian		#-12	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 3560 Dec 5 09 12:21 AM Undefeated ISSO Champ 2003-2006 Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hmmm... some things definitely look very familiar to me - let's give this a try or starters: Yes, I know - round barrel, but that front sight base... I presume yours is also windage-adjustable? FWIW, this pic comes from my Swinburn sporter - just like the next one: And of course, it also has the patch box:
TH		#-11	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 373 Dec 5 09 9:24 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi martinibelgian - yes the front sight is windage adjustable, I had not noticed-thanks I see your patchbox hinged cover is engraved, mine or the butt plate is not, possibly a replacement? What action is yours? It looks like a martini, the patch box would be for extras on a better quality rifle (Sorry for my ignorance on the Swinburn) TH A little fuzzy, more practice required!
Bill Curtisra		#-10	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 2306 Dec 5 09 1:21 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Martinibelgian, have you found out anything about the dealer who supplied your rifle ? I have come across this gold lettering for George Armstrong of Cradock (in South Africa) on a couple of Whitworths. He seems to have been an auctioneer and real estate merchant with a side line in the gun trade. I found out quite a lot about him but now I seem to be unable to find the references - the penalty of an ageing memory. W. S. Curtis, A.C.I.I., Vice President (Hon.), Crimean War Research Society, HBSA (Hon. Life), Assistant Curator, Museum of the National Rifle Association, Whitworth Rifle Research Project, MLAGB, NLRC, ATRA, &c.
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martinibelgian		#-9	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 3560 Dec 6 09 4:00 AM Undefeated ISSO Champ 2003-2006 Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bill, Judging fro mthe rifles I've seen, it seems that George Armstrong was somewhat more than a dealer - I've seen more than 1 rifle in that very same style, built on another action - but nevertheless so identical in concept (engraving, sights, patchbox, barrel ribs, gold lettering, gold serial no.) that either the man had a single maker in the UK do that work for him, or did it himself in SA. I even went to Cradock and talked to a collector there, who claimed that the man actually also built rifles, and showed me a list of SA gunmakers in I don't know which book to prove his point. Maybe buiding isn't the exact term, but I do believe it quite possible that he is responsible for the 'dressing up' part, starting with bought (barreled?) actions maybe, and doing all the rest himself. FWIW, I know of another one in the UK built on the WR improved action, and its serial no. is extremely close to mine (could even be consecutively numbered) - meaning that the man serialled these rifles himself. Judging from the style, he built for the well-to-do burghers, as most rifles with his name are pretty much full-option.
martinibelgian		#-8	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 3560 Dec 6 09 4:07 AM Undefeated ISSO Champ 2003-2006 Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	TH, A Swinburn a a Martini variant indeed - hare an action pic. If you look well, you'll see a checkered trigger and also a trigger stop - the underlever also has checkering. Wood-to-metal fit is also pretty good. Meanwhile, I've succeeded in obtaining a correct Swinburn cocking lever, so this one has been replaced.
TH		#-7	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 373 Dec 6 09 7:14 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Excellent! although Martini Henrys are further down my list of "Most desirable" arms, [drumming out from the board imminent!] the "Oddities" (no offence) such as this are really good , especially with engraving (see the hammer martini I posted under rook rifles, although unfortunately that one is plain) The little extras such as the engraving around the barrel peg really make a difference Doe you need to use the cocking lever each shot (to get round the martini patent) or is it used more as a safety or indicator? Thanks for the information TH
martinibelgian		#-6	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 3560 Dec 6 09 12:20 PM Undefeated ISSO Champ 2003-2006 Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	No - the cocking lever basically only serves to put the rifle on half-cock whenever needed - something not possible with a Martini. Still, the Martini is mechanically by far the better design. Mind you, this doesn't mean I want to get rid of my Cradock Swinburn...
Daryldiane		#-5	[-]
Colour Sergeant Posts: 249 Dec 6 09 12:53 PM Sergeant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	For a previous string on Cradock: http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/reply/14440#reply-14440
Bill Curtisra		#-4	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 2306 Dec 6 09 3:15 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	This is the George Armstrong of Cradock Whitworth that I mentioned. It is an Issue Pattern 1863 Troop Trials rifle, one of 8116 made at Enfield in 1864/5. Of these 1000 had barrels made and finished by Whitworth himself and these must have been rated as the pick of the bunch because they were the ones selected for the Queen's Finalists at Wimbledon in the years 1867-70. This Armstrong has the Whitworth made barrel (F109), Nothing surprising in this going to South Africa where large numbers of these rifles went after they were sold off at the end of 1868. However, was this a specially selected one ? I think very possibly. Not only has this one been decorated with his gold writing it has also, and most unusually for one of these, been fitted with what appears to be his standard form of butt trap. W. S. Curtis, A.C.I.I., Vice President (Hon.), Crimean War Research Society, HBSA (Hon. Life), Assistant Curator, Museum of the National Rifle Association, Whitworth Rifle Research Project, MLAGB, NLRC, ATRA, &c.
Robbie		#-3	[-]
Lance Sergeant Posts: 107 Feb 7 10 6:38 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	TH, A really "Best" Westley Richards, please let me have the Serial number and lock date, along with the barrel length. Kind regards, Robbie.
TH		#-2	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 373 Feb 7 10 4:38 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Robbie Barrel length is 25", date is 1875, Serial number is 16061. I saw one (this one?) at Bisley just after buying a military 'tail. (since sold). I was working in Romania at the next sale, so had to get a friend to buy it for me over the 'phone . Although rare(ish) the dealer said he had sold the other one and this was better (and more expensive!!). They appeared identical to me, I still dont know whether the dealer was taking me for the extra cash! TH
Robbie		#-1	[-]
Lance Sergeant Posts: 107 Feb 8 10 1:00 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks TH, I have a correspondant in S Africa who also has a windage adjustable foresight set up, without the sight. I'd like to make him a replacement but haven't found another to copy. Have you any ideas on the princple of adjustment? Kind regards, Robbie.
TH		#0	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 373 Feb 9 10 3:24 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi Robbie Here are 2 pics which show the principle of adjustment. The step down in the centre is to locate the screw, otherwise the screw would move instead of the sight. The thread is 0.1750" x 32 tpi (probably W/Rs own?) but 3/16 BSF is 0.1875" x 32 tpi, 10 thou oversize should not be a problem. If you/he cannot get a BSF tap or die, 4.5 mm x 0.75 is approx 0.177" x 30 tpi (NB. immediately wash mouth out with soap for metric thought!!) and would probably work ok. To half thread the blade, you could drill/tap then file/mill half off, or grip your blade against a blank then drill/tap between the two. (Don't mean to teach you how to suck eggs!) Hope this helps TH
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