Another Reality Check from Afghanistan

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Spur0701	Another Reality Check from Afghanistan	Lead	[-]
O/R Posts: 1 (11/07/09 22:27:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None New guy here, I've got some experience with Mil-surps but not M-Hs or Sniders. I've been in Kabul for a couple of months and will be here till about Mid-March. I've hit some of the Bazaars but there are so many Kyber Pass guns it's hard to weed out the real thing. Here's a M-H Mk II that I'm not completely sure of, I picked it up last Fri but have the option to take it back .....In the last pic you can see this B 32 stamp, an Army guy that I ran into at the bazaar said he's seen that same stamp on a number of different guns so he assumes it's an add on but he though the M-H was mostly intact and from what I saw of the stock finish it had a nice patina on it and when I compared it to some of the Kybers there's a difference....but then the Mk II is too large. Any insights?
17Z		#1	[-]
Corporal Posts: 75 (11/08/09 05:27:41) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm no expert.....but isn't that a MkIII rifle? Has the metal forearm hanger that hooks into the front of the receiver. To my only slightly educated eye, the rifle looks legit....excepting the mark of arm and lacking the class of arm stamp. Possibly worn/light stamps that got replaced with the bigger 'II' rather than the 'III' mark it should have. Last Edited By: 17Z 11/08/09 05:58:59. Edited 1 times.
The Double D		#2	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 5501 (11/08/09 06:08:45) Moderator Emeritus Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	First glance at the markings and it is a counterfiet! II wrong font and size. Crown wrong. Acid etching of side. Didn't look up the lock view mark it might be wrong also. I didn't look beyond that. But this rifle is a counterfiet. Douglas ******* To find things Martini go to:Martini Internet Resource List**
RichardWV		#3	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 931 (11/08/09 06:14:43) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	By date indicated it should be a MK II, since the MK III with hanger didn't come along until 1879.....but it has a hanger which is a different receiver. Also the markings aren't as square and even as they should be. It also has at least one commercial marking. As such it certainly isn't what it is marked...a 1877 MK II. The question is whether it is a scrubbed and remarked commercial rifle in the MK III pattern....something I can't tell from pics. It seems that remarking commercial contract rifles has become fairly common, with a number of the BSA&M contract rifles (Afghanistan bought a lot of contract rifles after the MH had passed from Brit use) showing up with royal cypher and other military marks.
17Z		#4	[-]
Corporal Posts: 77 (11/08/09 06:18:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I also thought the MkIII rifle didn't come into being until 1879 or later.
Berkley		#5	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 28 (11/08/09 07:03:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Spur0701 wrote: I've got some experience with Mil-surps but not M-Hs or Sniders. I've been in Kabul for a couple of months and will be here till about Mid-March. I've hit some of the Bazaars but there are so many Kyber Pass guns it's hard to weed out the real thing. Any insights? Just a suggestion that doesn't require any specialized knowledge: put a piece of paper in your pocket when you go to the bazaar. Use the straight edge of the paper to inspect stampings. Whole words like "ENFIELD" were not stamped using individual letter stamps.
jrmc75		#6	[-]
O/R Posts: 12 (11/08/09 12:16:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A pretty good primer on how much better the fakery has gotten over the last few years. Another quick giveaway is the crispness and clarity of the stampings compared to the overall finish of the rifle.
coggansfield		#7	[-]
Colour Sergeant Posts: 243 (11/08/09 16:18:58) Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	8 Nov. 2009 7:15pm It's as phoney as a three-dollar bill. As others have noted, you don't get mk. II receivers on mk. III foreends. And as Jrhead points out, the letters on "Enfield" don't line up. Also, all the inspection stamps say "B," the sign for the Sparkbrook rifle factory, which did not come into existence until the late 1880s. All Enfield-made rifles have "E" inspection stamps. Coggansfield
herbert		#8	[-]
O/R Posts: 4 (11/08/09 17:47:14) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	the action marks are obvious fakes,but the rifle looks very convincing,could it be a Mk 111 with the marks worn off or do the sparkbrook inspection marks rule this out,if it a fake the maker needs to be told he would make more money sining his own name
RichardWV		#9	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 937 (11/08/09 18:19:55) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Really hard to tell without it being in hand. It obviously is covered with fake stamps and the sparkbrook inspection mark (which did not make this rifle regardless) is fake as well. Given the aging that the metal appears to had done to it, from this distance I'd say it is fake through and through. However Afghanistan bought a lot of contract BSA&M and Brandlin Armory rifles and carbines very late and these bear few marks.....and have lately been showing up covered with fake military marks. Could this be one or part of one? I can't say, but I would bet against it.
The Double D		#10	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 5504 (11/08/09 19:10:15) Moderator Emeritus Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The sellers are suppling the Market with what the Market. Scrub marking for various commercial guns and a few marks that look real and sell guns! Douglas ******* To find things Martini go to:Martini Internet Resource List**
OldTimer		#11	[-]
O/R Posts: 10 (11/08/09 20:41:43) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Of course it's a dud, but let's draw breath here for a minute. It tells a story in it's own right. Can you imagine the time put into making up this beastie...? How many feet of railway line had to be chopped up to get the finished article? At least it didn't involve melting down jam tins to make things out of; like a certain far-eastern country did in recent times (aka hinges for the lids of the home-produced "Broomhandle" wooden holsters). For anyone who does have a collection of Marty's, what an interesting conversational piece this would be to have up on your wall next to the real thing. Not only that, it would be a good thing to use on some of those "Eddie the Expert" Martini collectors when they come to view your collection as to their comments if they do spot the difference. Just don't pay too much for it, and resist the urge to shoot it. I mean, let's face it; would you be silly enough to blaze away on the range firing some of those Nepalese home-made jobs....??? Oh; and while I'm in a good mood; I must say that I detest the use of the word "untouched", which I see so often now to describe some of those ancient things being pulled out of the container after their lengthy stay in Nepal, mortified in bat poop! In my day, the word "untouched" meant just that; "PRISTINE" condition; no rust, no splits in the wood, no missing parts, and no oil-soaked fore-ends and butts. In other words, "excellent" condition. Well of course those days are long gone, and I'm well aware that this wonderful find has meant that once again Martini and Snider rifles are REASONABLY affordable, but please; try and find a better description to use than "untouched" to describe these old bangers. It's almost as bad as that UK company some years back talking about "bullet heads"...what th'...???!! Last Edited By: OldTimer 11/08/09 21:31:35. Edited 1 times.
RichardWV		#12	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 939 (11/08/09 22:16:32) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Untouched" in the world of artifacts means that it hasn't been fooled with and is as it was found....not that it is pristine. So since you obviously understand what condition the Nepal firearms are in (and IMA/AC go out of their way with words and pictures to make sure you do), I think the "pull it out of the crate" condition is justified as "untouched", because nothing has been done to them since they were found.....other than being shipped here. If you don't like the use of the word, you certainly can't claim that anyone has in anyway hidden behind the word to disguise the condition of the subject arms. As to equating fakes with rifles hand made in a national armory (like Springfield rifles were prior to Eli Whitney redesigning the armory) I don't get where there is even a remote comparison. Fakes are fakes, whether it is a counterfeit $20 bill printed on a bleached genuine $1 bill (something that at one time was common) or a back room knock off of a famous painting, or a Martini put together from who knows what, artificially aged and then covered with stamps stating it is something it clearly is not. They are intended to deceive. Personally I don't like deceit and try to discourage it.....particularly when there are many that won't recognize it for what it is and will pay money for something that it isn't....sort of like theft, which I'm not real fond of either. Add to that the unknown of what the rifles are made from and it is a dangerous deceit as well as expensive. Yes I realize that some folks intentionally collect counterfeit items, but the ones in legitimate collections were acquired with full knowledge and are permanently identified as such. What part of the Nepalese made guns are intended to deceive? They are clearly marked as to their origin, right down to the units that used them. They are made from known materials and methods and again, IMA & AC....as well as responsible members of this board.....have emphasized their character. No lying or cheating there. Some are of questionable integrity because of their known and well documented limitations. Again, no deceit or hidden or disguised faults.
The Double D		#13	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 5505 (11/08/09 22:33:42) Moderator Emeritus Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think you need to look at the description of untouched given in the ad. It's just not untouched, but untouched since put in storage 90 to 100 years ago. It would be one thing if the KP copunterfiets were made as copies of fine old guns and represented as copies, or native made. it is quite another thing to be purposely made to decieve and represented as real. The GI's over there are buying thinking they are getting the real deal and they are not. That's fraud and nothing more. The sad part about including in a collection as they were bought "as real" they will be presented as real and then the unsuspecting collector is looked at as a fool. The only story it tells is one of fraud. Douglas ******* To find things Martini go to:Martini Internet Resource List**
OldTimer		#14	[-]
O/R Posts: 11 (11/09/09 07:39:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think, Richard, that you have missed the issue of what I was commenting on. Firstly; nowhere did I mention that the Nepalese rifles were fakes. Please read my comments again. When I referred to them, there was a full stop; not a comma, between my discussion on the Afghani rifles, followed by my comments on the word "untouched", which followed on with my mention of the Nepalese weapons; in a completely different light. The two sentences were NOT linked; and by the way, I made no reference to the Nepalese rifles being "fakes". If you were trying to read something else into what I said, you are mistaken - a bit like going off "half-cocked", to coin a well-used phrase. As I said, my own understanding of "untouched" goes back to a period in collecting that meant something completely different to the loose terminology applied today - no offence meant to those people importing these rifles, and selling them to the public - the description only applies apparently to my own understanding of condition, meaning something else. No doubt someone will tell me to move with the times, or whatever, but I have broad shoulders, and have been a collector for a long, long time . I also think that anyone who purchases an Afghani Martini today from those back-street bazaars MUST be prepared to take a chance that it could be dodgy. Are there really that many gullible people out there who would think otherwise?. I have one in my collection - it's a great conversation piece; acquired for that very reason. Are you to tell me that some poor old digger would be purposely drawn in to buy one of these guns from a bazaar thinking that it is the genuine thing, and be the butt of all jokes when he gets it home..? As Douglas mentioned, the danger lies if the so-called fake is passed on as real later on. It seems to me that at best those Afghani Martinis are only wall-hangers, and priced accordingly. What happened to the old warning "Caveat Emptor", hmm...?
RichardWV		#15	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 942 (11/09/09 08:19:35) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Your quote was "I mean, let's face it; would you be silly enough to blaze away on the range firing some of those Nepalese home-made jobs....??? " The Nepalese rifles aren't "home made" and it isn't "silly" to shoot some of them.....and others not so smart. They were made in a national arsenal that was as modern as many were in the early 1800s. Since the Brits blocked modernization, they continued on in the same tradition Springfield and Harpers Ferry did at the start. Again, hardly what I'd call "home made". As far as "Caveat Emptor", fakes are fakes and some of them are getting darn good in their markings. I see lots of them at gun shows being passed off as real and not all of the sellers are slime by a long shot, just ill informed. I don't see the fun "Eddie the expert" in tricking others. Ignorance is not funny when it comes to fakes. Nor do I find any humor in the number of people ripped off. It would be just as funny as you being caught with counterfiet money......and with the millions upon millions in circulation that happens to a fair percentage of the population. You are of course entitled to your point of view, but fakery is the main threat to Martini collecting and in my mind shouldn't be taken lightly or encouraged.
OldTimer		#16	[-]
O/R Posts: 12 (11/09/09 17:33:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well, Richard, I can see that I should have been a bit more specific when I referred to "Nepalese home-made jobs" in the broad sense of the word, because I was alluding more to the Nepalese-made Gehendra (which I believe in recent times one took a dislike to a hand-load and dismantled itself), and the others being home-made copies of the sharps rifle - most of these being manufactured in the early years. Am I wrong to call these "home-made jobs"...? If I had said that the Nepalese British-Pattern M-H rifles were home-made, then I would be sticking my neck out to cop a bit of flack. As for your comment regarding a comparison between fake money, and fake rifles, that's like comparing chalk to cheese - completely different. I couldn't agree with you more regarding your comment about unscrupulous sellers of these "fakes" as you call them but if you think that it was my intention to "trick" the so-called experts by having a "fake" Afghani Martini in my collection to see if they would know the difference, without me then telling them afterwards that it is a fake, well then you are barking up the wrong tree. All of this gets back to what I originally said - If you buy a Afghani Martini from a back-street bazaar, chances are that it will be dodgy. Where it becomes unacceptable is when the buyer brings that rifle back and tries to pass it off as original. That's when someone gets ripped off, and when it is deliberately done at a gun show it makes it even worse, as it is deceit. There is nothing wrong in selling a dud, providing that dud is described as as a dud, and not to be taken for anything else, and it's a fact of life that we will be seeing more and more of these. To finish off, you felt that "fakery is the main threat to Martini collecting". With the great number of Martini rifles out and about this world of ours, I have to disagree with that, unless you have heard of a vast subterranean factory churning these things out by the thousands at rock bottom prices...? Cheers.
JB White		#17	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 114 (11/09/09 18:16:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	If I may? I'm not a new collector but I am a newcomer to Martini collecting, having accumulated a grand total of four so far. Three British-made and one Nepali-made. Fakery is indeed a threat as new guys such as myself haven't yet developed the keen eye for detail or accumulated years of education and stored knowledge. We need to be very careful and we trust the more experienced collectors to help guide us through. There are only a set amount of Martini rifles out there. For a long while it was enough to satsify demand with enough scarce specimens to keep it challenging. Enter droves of newbies, (especially on the heels of the Nepal cache) and suddenly the demand begins to exceed the supply. That's when fakery becomes very profitable for the unscrupulous and disappointing for the new collector. "Homemade" to me has always meant a glorified zip gun. "Locally-made" better describes a bona fide knock off, government sanctioned, intended for a distinct purpose. In the case of the Nepal rifles they were intended to outfit a standing army. The quality is not in question as it it both obvious and well known that the rifles are a bit more primitive than those produced on refined Western machinery and assembly lines of the period. We just need to treat them for what they are and take into serious consideration that these are not the Western spec rifles that we are used to. The fakes run from scrubbed and remarked, to a mixmaster blend of original and homemade parts, to outward tourist trade garbage. Some are merely ill-fitted but functional weapons while others are shoulder held pipe bombs. I've seen the Khyber Pass Krap, Peshwar Tourism Promotionals, whatever, and the Nepal rifles outshine those by a very substantial margin. Last Edited By: JB White 11/09/09 18:23:45. Edited 1 times.
OldTimer		#18	[-]
O/R Posts: 13 (11/09/09 21:41:07) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Good comments there, JB. If I could say something for all new collectors; whatever you want to collect, please buy or borrow a book on the subject first. That will save a lot of anguish later. And if someone has a nice piece of whatever that looks a bit different but you just cannot put your finger on the reason why, steer clear of it if the seller exclaims.."it's the Officer's Model, Mate; that's why it's different.." Get yourself a little notebook and enter in sketches of the sequence of proof-marks and acceptance stamps that appear on Marty barrels, also action stampings and dates, which will be a good guide as to when various models were produced. A good reference book on the British Martini is the three-volume set produced some years back by Barry Temple & Ian Skennerton. These are still available through Ian's website. As well as these there are soft-covered pams produced by Ian that will provide you with a good understanding of what to look for. Don't forget the two-volume work "Treasure is where you find it" by Christian Cranmer, on the Royal Armoury of Nepal, and "Guns of the Gurkhas" by John Walter, both recent publications, and readily available. Everything you need to know on the Nepalese rifles. There are also guys on this forum who will help you, too. Commercial models as produced by the various 19th Century gunmakers for the Volunteers, or as private purchase rifles, will have minor variations, but should not be ignored either. Good Luck with your collecting!
Spur0701		#19	[-]
O/R Posts: 2 (11/09/09 22:10:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks for all the pointers. I'm very conscious of Kybers so I made the vendor agree to take it back if my research showed it was questionable and this vendor has a rep for doing that.....a few other collectors have bought from him and he's done the same for them......besides, if he doesn't I'll get him barred from post and he'll never make another sale. Other than the advice given in this thread others have told me to pay more attention to proof marks and inspector marks and make sure they match up with the manufacturer on the barrel and receiver. (Seldom will all parts match, though). Thumb the markings to look for sharp edges. Look for markings to be in the correct order. Check to see if every piece of metal has the same inspector's mark, in that it looks like the whole thing has been recently remarked. I ordered this book: Martini-Henry .450 Rifles & Carbines by Dennis Lewis Any others that would be useful? I've tried to get to Ian Skennerton's web site but the network over here is weird and there are a lot of sites I can't get to and his is one of them.
jrmc75		#20	[-]
O/R Posts: 13 (11/09/09 22:54:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"I ordered this book: Martini-Henry .450 Rifles & Carbines by Dennis Lewis Any others that would be useful? I've tried to get to Ian Skennerton's web site but the network over here is weird and there are a lot of sites I can't get to and his is one of them." I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Skennerton's SAIS (Small Arms Identification Series) #15 is about a good a quick reference as you'll find. for about the same cost as the book you mention. It's available from any number of online book sellers, as well as the IMA site. Last Edited By: jrmc75 11/10/09 06:26:32. Edited 1 times.

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Another Reality Check from Afghanistan

Another Reality Check from Afghanistan

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