Thanks very much
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faeroe |
Dating a BSA |
Lead | |
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The rifle in question is a .303 martini sporter bought at auction. The auctioneer said that it is pre-1899, but I have not been able to confirm. I don't
want to pay to have it shipped as an antique unless I have some backup proof. Does the factory or anyone have records?
Thanks very much |
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The Double D |
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Can you provide more information.
Is this a .303 Military rifle that was spoterized? If so it should/may have the date on the left side. Is this Commercial BSA made in .303. I am not aware of any of these, but as I go along in this hobby that only means, I'm not aware, others maybe. Pictures would be helpful. |
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joelblack88 |
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I am curious as to where you live. In most locales it is cheaper to ship antiques.
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faeroe |
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Douglas,
Joel, The concern is not how it is classified for shipping, rather it is getting it into the country as a pre-99 gun withoput positive supporting information.
Regards |
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The Double D |
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That may be an Antique and may not be, but you will have a difficult time proving it. Here's how you do it. Have the Auction house send you a letter
stating a full description of the rifle and certifying that it was made before 1899. Send that letter to ATF Imports Branch and request a determination as to
whether you need an ATF Form 6 to import the rifle. They may or may not accept the Auction house's letter and will send you send you a letter saying yes or
no.
You could also just import that rifle under your C&R license. Submit an ATF 6 with the letter described above. If ATF says pre 1899, they will Mark the application accordingly and send it back. Marked as an Antique no license required. If ATF sends you the paper work to pay the excise tax...you have to pay. They got me. |
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joelblack88 |
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Douglas,
I know its your field of expertise, but I have imported at least 60 antique Webleys and never asked ATF for pre-approval or had any of your fellow customs officers question them. As a matter of fact the last 14 weren't even open for inspection. I wish ATF had more expertise or used outside experts. The RCMP CFC is a pleasure to work with. They are open and receptive. On the other hand, many years ago I wrote ATF about 6 Inglis High Powers that Navy Arms imported which, as the result of an over run of the Chinese contract, had fixed sights and stock slots. Val wanted to get an OK for them to be used with Canadian shoulder stocks. I sent them a detailed explanation along with a letter from the curator of the largest US Military museum only to receive a reply that "only Chinese contract High Powers with adjustable sights were cut for stocks". I still have that bit of stupidity in a frame on my office wall. |
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The Double D |
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Joel,
I am just giving the dot the I and crossing the T's method. The best way to avoid "Mr. Customs Enforcement". I once sat in the outer office at Customs in Charlotte for 8 hours trying to clear a pre 1899 Francotte Cadet in .297/230 Morris that was shipped and claimed as a pre 1899 antique. I had a letter from the Auction house plus some reference books showing that it was pre 1899. Not good enough. The Custom Officer got out all the paper work to do a siezure for no importation license. I Had to ask for a supervisor to even get the guy to contact ATF Imports. After they sent the paper work off, ATF Imports Branch called back and asked to speak with me. THe ATF Agent asked some questions about the rifle confirmed to me the rifle was pre 1899. He recognized the Australian marks and Queen Victoria's crown plus the chambering as pre 1899 and told Customs let my rifle go. Then said he thought he knew me as a Customs Officer he had dealt in the past. I confirmed that and he asked me if the Inspector trying to sieze my rifle knew that, Told him no, the Officer didn't need to know that to import my rifle. The ATF Import Officer told me about writing to get the determination letter ahead of time to deal with Officers like the one I was dealing with. When I came back from SA, I found out that the SA Gun dealer who was going to help export my guns didn't have a clue how to do it. I had to have the guns shipped to Classic Arms and they did the export. One of the things I had have to export from SA was import permits from the U.S. For the 1871 Westley Richards, I sent ATF pictures of the guns, copies of the info from Winfers books and a letter describing the gun and a request for a determination. Took about three weeks to get the letter saying antique and be prepared to prove it at importation. The US Custom Officer read ATF letter and passed the rifle, questions. ATF rejected one of my import requests for a double barrel shotgun. THey would not accept UNK as maker, even though that what was on the SA records. I called ATF Imports from SA and the ATF Agent told me to look on Little Gun BE.com and find my gun there. I did, changed the application and she expedited my permnit. When importing, ATF is not who you have to worry about, its Customs. The more paper work you have the better. And if it is Official looking that is even better. In order to claim the antique exemption to import a firearm, you must be prepared to prove it is antique....but before that, you have to have Customs Officer who knows that law. When I retired Customs was responsible for enforcing over 600 laws for 60 Agencies. There is just no way they can now the specific of all those laws. The ones they deal with daily, yes, Most Customs Officers in their career may never import a firearm, and if they do encounter a firearm they will pass the process to a supervisor or someone who thinks they know. Others will just pass everything through, don't make waves. More an more, however the Officers if they have any doubt about the proper procedure they just hold everything. They no longer exercise descretion or common sense, without consulting up the chain. So if you can provide them with a letter from ATF saying okay antique let if go, it gives them something in writing to justify their action and facilitates the passage of your arm. Also trust me form my own experience as the Customs Officer doing the importations, it just ain't easy to tell some times...(If I could have figured out the Webley's I would have brought a couple back from SA). You have to be knowledgeable. If you aren't a gun person you might not know that Patent date or Model 1894 Winchester isn't year made. Nor is a late model 1894 a replica of a gun made before 1899 and thus exempt either. I have had people try to tell me that. |
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joelblack88 |
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Douglas,
I once ran into a problem 10 years ago. I called Mary Jo who at that time ran the Milwaukee ATF and she personally went to the port of Milwaukee and got it cleared. If all ATF folk were like her, I'd never worry. Since that one incident I have never had a problem. The guys I knew who were importers like Thad Scott and Val Fogett were always bucking heads with customs or ATF, although ultimately Val's biggest problems came from the State of NJ. I know recently ATF made Joe Salter change the location of where he marked his imports. Despite your standing, I was amazed you were able to get your stuff out of SA. As I said, I have had no problems importing antique guns from the UK, Canada, Australia or NZ. They have all been sent by private owners with no import or export agents involved. Of course some of the countries require their DOD's permission but it really has been easy. One go-round with SA wanting a Webley Bull Dog to be sent ATA armed courier was enough for me.
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The Double D |
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Joel,
Only ATA armed carrier within South Africa to the Airport. |
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JC5555 |
Dating | ||
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Did this topic get resolved?
If not, I'd like to try to help date it. I'm no expert, but have done a fair amount of research on commercial BSA Lees and Martinis. What are the markings? Not just proof marks, but all marks? Can you share some photos? |
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The Double D |
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JC, if you can help, please do!! Also if you can share with us resources on BSA the rest of us would be appreciative. My only BSA reference is Knibbs Golden
Century. It is useful but a bit tedious to extract information from and limited in scope. It is not useful in this discussion.
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JC5555 |
BSA reference | ||
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DD,
"The Golden Century" is valuable, but unfortunately for anyone interested in Sniders, full-size Martinis, or Lee Speeds, the book starts in the 20th century. There is a good general history of BSA, published in 1946, called "The Other Battle" and this is not hard to find from used booksellers or in libraries. As for a contemporary guide to the nineteenth century commercial guns of BSA (Sniders, Martinis, Lees)---well, I'm working on it, but it's slow going. I've been collecting data on Lee Speeds in particular for some time now, and have posted a bit on them over at the Lee Enfield Gunboard forums and British Gun Pub. Most of the data I have on markings and features comes from collectors being kind enough to share photos and data on markings...then I compare the data with other rifles. Slowly, trends start to emerge...but I'm a long way from having all the answers. Every bit of data on a commercial BSA guns (like this Martini sporter) is helpful. If Faeroe could post some photos or a description of markings (including proof marks), I might be able to give a date estimate, or tell at least whether it's an antique. Always happy to help, share, and discuss old guns.
Researching BSA Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.
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faeroe |
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I am going to try to upload pictures.
The Barrel markings include: the S/N - T70**, stamped as a 'v' inside a circle, followed by the S/N; stamping of 'P44' and '30' under the forearm, as well as a 3 over 'F.H'; 'Nitro Proved'; an 'E' inside a circle; and 'A.O.' The rib is engraved 'Made Expressly for J.F. King, Durban, By the Birmingham Small Arms Co Limd England.' The front edge of the receiver is stamped with '44' on one side and '30' on the other. The forearm is stamped '44' inside the barrel channel. The stock is stamped 'Z1412' followed by a downward pointing arrow, horizontal line, upward pointing arrow. There is no discernible designation of caliber. There are several proof stamps that I have not attempted to explain above that I can get into at more length later. Overall, this is a very nicely balanced rifle that I intend to use for hunting whitetails. It probably needs to be re-crowned, but otherwise it seems to be perfectly functional. The safety even appears to be in order. It has a replacement front sight that does not fit properly at this point, but I will work with a very competent gunsmith to get that straightened out. If I can get this to shoot, it might even jump in front of the 12/15 sporter I am building in 7-30 Waters as a whitetail gun.
Last Edited By: faeroe
09/30/09 10:23:16.
Edited 1 times.
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The Double D |
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The Double D |
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Oh my, that is a lovely gun. I have been to Kings in Durban. Try .303 British. If not make a chamber cast and measure it.
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JC5555 |
Antique | ||
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Faeroe,
Thank you for posting those pics. What a beautiful rifle! I wish I owned it. I think I can help you with your original question about whether this is an antique. According to Berkovitch, "The Cape Gunsmith" (p.108), J.F. King was at Durban until 1898, so there you go---antique by U.S. standards (i.e., pre-1899). That was easy. Now, can we get even more precise? Given the BSA inscription, I would estimate that it was produced in 1897 or 1898, which is reasonably certain--more accurate than most estimates can be for these undated firearms. Could you please post pictures or descriptions of the proof marks? This is important for my research. Also, a picture of the encircled V that you mentioned; I am eager to see a close-up picture of that. I am trying to discover the meaning of the encircled V and encircled E marks that I see on many BSA guns of this period. (Many people assume the E stands for Enfield rifling---a plausible theory---but so far without any documented evidence). Another theory holds that these are factory inspector's marks, or that they are (optional) Gov't view marks that customers could request. I have valid doubts about those theories as well. As a spooky fellow once said, "The truth is out there..." Keep in mind, this is a 100% commercial firearm---a sporting Martini built for sporting use---not a conversion from a military arm. I am NOT a dealer, importer, or a lawyer, but I recall that there are some import restrictions on military arms (defined by the BATF as one that belonged to a regular or irregular military force at any time). Well, this is not a military firearm in any sense. I have pre-1899 retail catalogues to prove it, if necessary.
Researching BSA Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.
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The Double D |
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There you gofaeroe, JC5555 came up with the information you need. You should communivate with him via PM and get dopies of the document he researched to go
with your request to ATF.
If a Military arm is made prior to 1899 it is exempt as an antique and does not meet the military-government arm restrictions. Military Arms made after 1898 must be imported on an ATF Form 6 via a registered importer. You can't do it with your C&R License. If it is a U.S. made military arm the State Department must sign off on it before ATF can issue the ATf 6. For all the precise details and the absolutely correct procedures, contact ATF Imports branch.
Last Edited By: The Double D
10/08/09 15:17:26.
Edited 1 times.
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JC5555 |
Commercial vs Military | ||
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On the subject of military vs. civilian (or commercial) firearms, Americans who must deal with Form 6 issues and the question of whether a post-1899 gun is
"surplus military" should remember that Martinis, Lee Metfords, and Lee Enfields were produced in civilian versions, retailed for commercial sale.
These are not surplus. If there are no government markings, and if you see commercial proofs, it is almost certainly a non-surplus gun. This is just to restate
what I said about the sporting Martini in my previous post, but to apply it to commercial Lees as well. (It applies to Sniders too, but those are easily
classified as antiques and not subject to restrictions). Again, I'm not a dealer or a lawyer, so my info is just FYI, and a prompt for further
verification. Don't be crazy and sue me.
When considering the British Empire, one shouldn't think that just because a firearm is civilian and not government issue that it doesn't have a colorful history (or infamous history, depending on your view). I respect that collectors enjoy military arms for their connections to key campaigns, battles, or units. But consider that privately purchased Martinis outfitted the kit of many an intrepid explorer or big game hunter in the dangerous places of Africa and Asia. Civilian Martinis were, of course, used extensively in both Anglo-Boer wars. Frederick Russell Burnham was an American cowboy who joined up with Cecil Rhodes and took part in the campaign against Lobengula (in which the forces of the British South Africa Company were equipped entirely with trade pattern Martinis from BSA). Russell used his privately purchased Martini during his ride with the Shangani Patrol, and later. Even in the well-known Zulu War, we see "trade" Martinis in the hands of Evelyn Wood's Swinburn-equipped bodyguard. The list of examples could go on at length. I have never understood why commercial versions were less desirable among (some) collectors, especially when the quality of manufacture is usually superior, and their history just as interesting.
Last Edited By: JC5555
10/08/09 10:04:37.
Edited 1 times.
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faeroe |
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JC5555,
Thanks for your help here. I am now trying to post close-ups of all barrel stampings. I should mention that I did not take any close-ups of the sight and its markings, but there are fixed sights for 100 yards, flip-ups for 200 and 300, and volley sights to 1000. What does not show clearly in the last picture is the number, 30 on the opposite side of the receiver from the 44. Any further help on the meaning of the various stamps is greatly appreciated. |
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JC5555 |
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I wish I could tell you more. I have seen the "FH" stamp (as well as the encircled V and E) on commercial BSA Lees. The fact that they appear on a
Martini is good information...but I still don't know what they mean. The backsight is identical to the Lee express sights that you see on those rifles from
the 1890s through the 1920s. They saw no need to change that design. I'll stand by the date estimate I have above: 1897 or 1898. It is 100% certifiable as
an antique, definitely a classic. Beautiful rifle.
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