Remington percussian target rifle with pictures

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Kierlup	Remington percussian target rifle with pictures	Lead	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 40 (07/03/09 07:38:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None I was asked to help the owner identify this and approximate a value. It is marked " Remington" on the lock and barrel, although the top flat of the barrel has two initials followed by "Soper" over "London C W". The barrel is octagonal its full length except at the muzzle, and is .40 cal. roughly. The lock is perfect, with no rust anywhere on this rifle. The wooden rod is not a match to the rifle, too big to fit the bore. Unhappily, there is a split in the stock to one side of the tang and lock. All production numbers are the same on the barrel, and the lock pieces. I haven't yet got the owner's permissian to pull the plug, so I haven't had a good look at the bore yet, but I will get my gunsmith to do that; don't want to risk marking anything.With the stock fixed, I suspect it should shoot well. I apologize for the inconvenience, but I have to add the pictures to separate windows, as I have a software problem, which should be fixed later to-day. If a moderator can work the link to the photobucket site, there are about 44 pictures there, but I'm just learning the picture posting process. This is such a beauty, I thought I'd go ahead anyway. Peter
Kierlup		#1	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 41 (07/03/09 07:41:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Haven't figures out why some come out this size and others large, except these were cropped prior to uploading to photobucket Last Edited By: Kierlup 07/03/09 08:10:44. Edited 1 times.
Kierlup		#2	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 42 (07/03/09 07:44:21) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts
Kierlup		#3	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 43 (07/03/09 07:47:13) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts
Kierlup		#4	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 44 (07/03/09 07:51:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts
Kierlup		#5	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 45 (07/03/09 07:54:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts
Kierlup		#6	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 46 (07/03/09 07:59:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts
Kierlup		#7	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 47 (07/03/09 08:02:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	From what I understand, Remington didn't actually make entire rifles before approx.1850. I can't figure out why a Remington marked barrel and lock would also have the name of an English firm on the flat of the barrel. Any information would be most appreciated, and as you can guess, I would certainly like to acquire this if it wouldn't cost both arms and legs. Would certainly love to light thisone up someday. Thanks for any information. Peter Last Edited By: Kierlup 07/03/09 08:09:11. Edited 1 times.
Kierlup		#8	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 48 (07/03/09 08:14:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think it's "W H Soper" over "London C W"
Kierlup		#9	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 49 (07/03/09 08:20:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s187/kierlup/Remington/
Bill Curtisra		#10	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 396 (07/03/09 08:54:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This will be by William H. Soper of London, Ontario. There were quite a lot of Sopers in the gunmaking business in England, Canada, Australia and California. I think that the "C W" may stand for "Canada West" but I am sure our Maple-Leaf friends will know the answer to that one. W. S. Curtis, A.C.I.I., Vice President (Hon.), Crimean War Research Society, HBSA (Hon. Life), Assistant Curator, Museum of the National Rifle Association, Whitworth Rifle Research Project, MLAGB, NLRC, ATRA, &c.
Kierlup		#11	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 50 (07/03/09 09:15:20) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks Bill. I was hoping to hear what you might have. The irony is, I live in London, Ontario, and I didn't seriously consider that it might have been locally made. Go figure.
Pinky		#12	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 1154 (07/03/09 10:53:58) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Curiosity here! would the turned section at the muzzle have been to fit a "false muzzle" for loading to protect from true muzzle from wear? Pinky It is not a gun. It is not a Weapon. It is not a firearm. It is a single cylinder single stroke internal combustion engine with a free floating piston!
The Double D		#13	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 5109 (07/03/09 16:38:37) Moderator Emeritus Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Soper most likely would be the retailer. Remington the maker. That is unless this is a reporduction, but you haven't reported anything to suggest that. Some knowledgeable person will have to identify the Remington markings as authentic. If it is a reproduction and I have no reason to believe it is, it is a very nice reproduction. I just went digging in my library and found an old book titled The Remington Historical Treasury of American Guns and there is a gun pictured there very much like this gun but nothing more. I grabbed my Flaydermans and they are a bit more helpful in they say it's very difficult to identify a true Remington made gun of this type. Remington made and sold barrels which are generally marked on the bottom. Fladermans also say true Remingtons of this type were well marked, but markings were not consistant. If this is a real Remington, you need to find a true Remington Collector who specilizes in this field to get a correct identification. I do know know such a person. I believe I would start with the NRA's National Firearms Museum. It is going to take a bit of effort to find an expert, but if this rifle is a real Remeington, it's value makes the effort very worthwhile. Douglas ******* To find things Martini go to:Martini Internet Resource List**
Kierlup	Just an update	#14	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 51 (07/09/09 06:14:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I contacted the NRA and got a very quick response, forwarded the album to their research branch, and heard from them yesterday. As suspected, not a Remington-assembled rifle. The researcher suggested 1830, 1840 range, which seems a bit early to me. Sent it along to the Remington Society, and got a reply referring me to Flayderman's, but proposing the gunmaker as Wm. Soper of Reading, Berkshire between 1866 and 1882, who also exhibited sporting rifles in Philadelphia in 1875. Jay Huber very kindly provided that information, and confirmed that the Society has nothing to indicate that such rifles were ever assembled by Remington in the USA. However, I'm trying to go through historical societies here in London, Ontario, for any records of a W.H. Soper, either as gunmaker or retailer, as the barrel is not marked to Reading, or Berkshire. My English geography is sadly deficient, however. So, likely to remain a mystery for now. Next issue, getting permission to pull the tang, get a good look at the rifling, and decide what to use as a charge, and what kind of bullet to use? I presume one can always use a ball, but would they have been designed with the expectation of a Minie-type, or a flat-based conical? I'm a total novice at this, but can't resist. I blame that first Snider-Enfield four years ago. Peter
The Double D		#15	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 5124 (07/09/09 07:57:26) Moderator Emeritus Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Reading and Berkshire are in Pennsylvannia, USA. It's an American Made rifle Douglas ******* To find things Martini go to:Martini Internet Resource List**
Fred	Soper	#16	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 97 (07/09/09 07:58:19) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This looks to me to be an English Deer Park rifle---if so, it is intended for patched balls. Fred.
Bill Curtisra		#17	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 400 (07/09/09 08:03:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Der Neue Stockel says - Soper, William H. San Francisco+San Luis Obispo+Eureka, Humboldt Co., Cal/USA+London, Ont. CDN, geboren 1814-88. Aus..., N.Y./USA, stammend, Vater von Robert William und von William H. Soper, erw 1858. Von 1846-75 in London aufgefuihrt. 1876 fur LIDDLE & KEADING tatig. 1877 in San Francisco mit George REMINGTON assoziert <<Soper & Remington>>, 4234 Washington Str. 1879-82 in San Luis Obispo. Q48;Q179 I do not speak German so I suggest you check this out with someone who does. W. S. Curtis, A.C.I.I., Vice President (Hon.), Crimean War Research Society, HBSA (Hon. Life), Assistant Curator, Museum of the National Rifle Association, Whitworth Rifle Research Project, MLAGB, NLRC, ATRA, &c.
David K		#18	[-]
Lance Sergeant Posts: 19 (07/09/09 08:28:08) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I found similar information on William H. Soper in "California Gunsmiths 1846-1900" by Lawrence P. Shelton. Interestingly, it states that he was in partnership with George Remington in San Francisco between 1877 - 1879. The octagon barrel with a turned muzzle section is pretty commonly seen on both target and hunting rifles from the 1840's onward. If it were set up for a false muzzle, there will be (usually) four pin holes in the muzzle in line with the bore. David Kaiser Montezuma, IA Last Edited By: David K 07/09/09 08:32:03. Edited 1 times.
Kierlup		#19	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 52 (07/09/09 09:13:27) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	To further the mystery, I spoke to a local historian just a few minutes ago, who confirmed that W. H. Soper did carry on in London, Ontario as a gunmaker. He's checking further sources to try to narrow the dates, but the stamping on the barrel flat would be consistent with his having been here. Sounds like he got around a bit. Congratulations Bill, looks like you're right on the money! I'll have to have a better look at the muzzle area to see whether there is anything under the patina in that area, but there's nothing readily apparent. If the owner agrees to sell, or at least agrees to the little bit of work required to correct the minor deficits in the stock, shouldn't take much to get it shooting again. Thanks for all the assistance, everyone. I'll keep you posted. Peter PS The aperture on the tang sight is barely large enough to accomodate seeing the front sight, and the regular rear sight is missing the mechanism to adjust the elevation. It would be one heavy arm to carry for hunting purposes. My local (genius) gunsmith is formerly from Birmingham, Arthur Troth, and will undoubtedly be able to fabricate the appropriate elevation adjustment to perfection. Last Edited By: Kierlup 07/09/09 09:25:43. Edited 1 times.
trfuller		#20	[-]
Corporal Posts: 72 (07/13/09 11:20:08) Lance Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Soper, William H. San Francisco+San Luis Obispo+Eureka, Humboldt Co., Cal/USA+London, Ont. CDN, geboren 1814-88. Aus..., N.Y./USA, stammend, Vater von Robert William und von William H. Soper, erw 1858. Von 1846-75 in London aufgefuihrt. 1876 fur LIDDLE & KEADING tatig. 1877 in San Francisco mit George REMINGTON assoziert <<Soper & Remington>>, 4234 Washington Str. 1879-82 in San Luis Obispo. Q48;Q179 " Soper, William H. San Francisco+San Luis Obispo+Eureka, Humbolt county California, USA+ London, Ont, Canada, born 1814-88 (died). Hailed from NY/USA, father of Robert William and William H Soper, mentioned 1858. From 1846-75 listed in London. 1876 working for Liddle & Keading. 1877 in association with George Remington in San Francisco <<Soper & Remington>>, 4234 Washington St. 1879-82 in San Luis Obispo."

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Remington percussian target rifle with pictures

Remington percussian target rifle with pictures

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