Danish Rolling Block catastrophic failure....

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Artillery Art	Danish Rolling Block catastrophic failure....	Lead	[-]
Corporal Posts: 67 (05/19/09 03:23:37) Lance Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None http://www.pbase.com/halp/danerollblock Found this example while 'webbing....... Bullet stuck in bore? Air in cartridge over black powder? Load seems mild enough. WOW! Thank the powers--that-be that the shooter got out of it in as good condition as he did! I shoot a Dane RB!! Anyone see a failure like this before? Given the Worlds Fair trials with umpteen bullets and a handful of powder........
The Double D		#1	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 5021 (05/19/09 05:26:57) Moderator Emeritus Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Seems to be an unusual number of reports of these Danish rifles breaking. One post I saw on another other board says this may be associated with the steel used on the gun and the conversion of the guns from rimfire to centerfire. As I go through the boards this morning, I'll watch for that post and link it here. Douglas ******* To find things Martini go to:Martini Internet Resource List**
Fred	RB Failures	#2	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 89 (05/19/09 05:52:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Not seen a Danish one fail before, but have seen the remains of a Swedish one and a US one. Pattern of failure appears to be consistent: no sign of fatigue (cumulative damage) cracks. Catastrophic failure of barrel and breach due pressures way over the norm. Rolling block breach mechanism held. I have seen a photograph of one other failure which did appear to have a possible fatigue crack in the breach--the whole thing was pretty rusty so it was not possible to be sure. The guy who had a similar failure at Bisley some years ago thought that he had loaded 30grn of 2400. It turned out to be 30grn of Bullseye. I can't see this being a black powder load---equally, I am sure that the shooter thought it was. Fred
The Double D		#3	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 5022 (05/19/09 06:07:39) Moderator Emeritus Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	As promised... http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=52526 Douglas ******* To find things Martini go to:Martini Internet Resource List** Last Edited By: The Double D 05/19/09 10:31:32. Edited 1 times.
RichardWV		#4	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 802 (05/19/09 07:49:44) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	FWIW, I think the large number of reported failures has more to do with the fresh influx of Danish and Swedish RBs into the US and then into hands of newbies than I do to the actual quality (or lack there of) of the rifles. As I recall similar problems were reported when the Egyptian RBs came in, which are of similar vintage. Too many folks with zero experience taking WEB based advice and doing things to tempt fate. The RB contrary to many's firmly held believe isn't the world's strongest action design and most importantly, when they let go, they really let go. While the trapdoor is routinely slammed for being weak, a Gun Digest article about 15 years ago tested TDs to catestrophic failure. Failure was easy to acheive as was expected, but one that would kill the shooter was impossible to duplicate (a major shock to the author), whereas just about any RB failure has the shooter's face at risk. My Swedish RB has a .507 major diameter, which I think is on the low normal side. Folks routinely are cramming .515 bullets down the bores of these (hey it is the same as the 50-70......right???), which I liken to running .468 bullets down a Gahendra. For the Danish rifles, I see them routinely listed as being in 45-70. Well you can cram a 45-70 into one, but you'll have an over length under width case with a overly crimped neck....just asking for a problem. I think we'd all be better off if folks were banned from likening any foreign cartridge to any US cartridge. A MH isn't a 45-70 and neither is a Danish RB and the Swedish RBs aren't a 50-70.
Artillery Art		#5	[-]
Corporal Posts: 68 (05/19/09 09:45:38) Lance Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Wise advise from all. I enlarged the photo and it appears that the receiver had been case-colored. Every Dane that I've seen or owned, appeared to have a bright receiver. Maybe someone applied a torch/heat to the receiver? The rear sight looks odd also. Piecer? Nevertheless, the receiver split where it is the thinnest; at the left and right vertical sides. Probably the left side let go first where the sliding extractor groove is milled into the side of the barrel. I've only had one .45-70 (Winchester) case ever split on me and I didn't notice it at all except upon extraction. Unaccounted for verdigris corrosion inside the case. No gas escaped from the breech. I do clock my rounds, have taken a chamber cast, and wrap several turns of electricians tape around the base of the cartridge (Keeps the total expansion from all happening at first firing) and then neck-size only. That poor fellow with the Swede RB that died: .500 Nitro?! Where and why did he get THAT? Forum members remember that I had a similar problem with a Brixia pistol that I sold. Another so-called "expert" told the buyer that it was perfectly OK to shoot Czech sub-machingun 9mm in it. Lasted almost 2 clips then dis-corporated taking several of the buyer's fingers with it. Just the same, gonna get a center-fire only breechblock and turn some stronger pins for my Dane!
joelblack88		#6	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 463 (05/19/09 09:45:50) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree Richard. I've owned a Remington RB 7mm carbine which I have shot with modern 7mm Mauser loads for 40 years. It is still in perfect condition.
Fabian23		#7	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 374 (05/19/09 23:04:43) Sergeant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I use .515s in my Swede, but sized down to .510. I have been using a 50-70 die set but I have to resize after seating for the cartridge to chamber smoothly since the seating die does not remove the flair at the case mouth. Perhaps shelling out for a proper 12.7x44R die set is in order......
57Scandia		#8	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 164 (05/20/09 10:37:21) Lance Sergeant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My Swede has .515/484 groove/bore - that's .0155 groove depth. The bore looks almost like a hexagon when viewed from the front. I haven't shot it yet, but I plan on using a 500 grains .515 bullet (the chamber has been tampered with and will have to be reamed to 50-70 gov) I'll probably end up making a new centerfire breach block from THG 2000 - a tough pre-hardned tool steel. Still, the pressure will be held below 15000 psi - those pics of the wrecked Danish RB has a distinct sobering effect. Cap'n Morgan
Paul in Briz		#9	[-]
Lance Sergeant Posts: 80 (05/20/09 22:36:59) Lance Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think there maybe something in what Art has said about shiny receivers. I wonder if the case hardening has been polished off by the owners ?
Herbert Rogers		#10	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 163 (05/21/09 03:28:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Crikey! What kind of flame thrower do you have in your Avatar Paul? They must be rifle loads you're using. Cheers Herb Rogers Last Edited By: Herbert Rogers 05/21/09 03:36:25. Edited 1 times.
RichardWV		#11	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 803 (05/21/09 11:42:24) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I can't imagine an owner polishing off case hardening and I can't imagine there being much sign of case hardening left on your typical well used 135+ year old rifle. Neither of my Danes show any sign of case hardening and if they were polished it was a long, long, long time ago. What my frames are is the silver-grey appearance I'd expect on 135 year old receivers that haven't been refinished. The crystalline structure evident in the pics of the failure point to a pretty brittle receiver as one would expect from the failure, but they also points to a brittle barrel, which one would not expect. I thought the barrel of the Danes were supposed to be steel and not malleable iron. However the subject barrel sure looks like an iron failure to me, since barrel steel should show a lot more distortion and not appear shattered with little if any bending/distortion.
Tacolneston		#12	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 1123 (05/21/09 11:53:39) Veteran of the Regiment Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Richard, there may be something wrong with the photograph in your last post. It does not show on my screen. Roy
Artillery Art		#13	[-]
Corporal Posts: 69 (05/21/09 12:44:00) Lance Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think you're right, Richard. The steel ( or iron, more likely) is very "grainy". Almost a grey iron. At Bendix we smelted scrap steel with grey iron sprues and runners for disc brake calipers and fractures looked exactly the same. I brought up the case-hardening thing because the pre-failure photo seems to have a cased receiver. I know that some muzzle-loaders used to artificially case-color lockplates and triggerguards with cold blue and tincture of benzoin (I think that's what it was). You used a torch to heat-soak the plates then swabbed on the solutions. Looked pretty, not real durable, but the kicker was heating the plate. I've never heard of anyone trying to use this process to color a receiver but this is also the first Dane that I've ever seen let go. My Dane is in the 45K range, just after they started making their own under license. I've also seen Egyptians Model 1879's, 1897's and No. 5's with Remington receivers and you can see the "grain" with no trouble whatsoever. Like lyou said--all the Danes I've ever examined had that matte silver-greyish sheen. No signs of case-hardening even inside the receiver. Add to the pot those square-cut threads and the milled extractor slot with no filleting and cumulative metal fatigue plus age...... BTW, isn't Doug putting together a piecer Martini for testing to destruction?
Fabian23		#14	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 375 (05/22/09 00:13:59) Sergeant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My Swede does have a slight golden tint to the frame but I think this is just patina, definately not case hardening. I used to have a sporter made from the early Remington ordered Swedes, the comparison between the two was quite stunning. The frame of the Swedish built carbine is like a Remington on steroids, much more massively built although the innards appear to be the same in terms of scale. 57Scandia - Expect hexagonal holes in the target too!
Paul in Briz		#15	[-]
Lance Sergeant Posts: 81 (05/22/09 00:51:53) Lance Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well Herb my old friend, carbine loads are for girls ! Real men and certifiable nuts like me have health insurance for shoulder reconstruction.
longcaribiner		#16	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 162 (06/10/09 14:05:20) Sergeant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Two of my Egyptian Rollers have very striated receivers. To the point that it look like rings in a twisted cross section of wood. I've never run across such recievers in any other model. Almost like the metal was already cooling when the reciever was cast. I don't believe I would shoot either of those.
mwhite49	rolling block failures in the past	#17	[-]
O/R Posts: 19 (10/06/09 15:18:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I have been reading Ballantines book on the Fruend brothers and found some interesting information. Remington did not keep records on failures, most gun manufactures did not becuase of the liability issue. Tonight I will try my hand at typing out the exact writting in the book, but the short of it is a 45-70 was rechambered to 45-90 this is way back in the 1800's and it was in a news paper article Fruend referanced. It said that the shooter died as the breech block went thru his skull. That is why Remington never chambered them in what could be called Express chamberings, 50-70, but not 50-90, 50-100, or 50-110 winchester express, 45-70 but not 45-90, or 45-100, 40-70 SBN and SS but not anything bigger. Remington knew that is's action was prone to failure at higher pressures generated from the bigger shells. The Danes did anneal and re-case their actions when converting, remember some of these actions are original Remington actions from 1865 time frames, under license the Danes used modern ( for the time steels) and the appropriate heat treatment methods. I would not trust even a good Dane at high pressure, maybe a 1902-1907 model but not the older ones. The newer actions were made out of Nickle steel. I have seen actions fail that have been cased for refinishing that were not annealed first, most folks that do the color case jobs advise that they should be annealed first, and then re-cased. Otherwise you could end up with a brittle bomb. Makes perfect since to me. Mike
mwhite49	rolling block failures from a historical perspective	#18	[-]
O/R Posts: 20 (10/06/09 17:20:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	OK, here is a small portion of a letter sent by Freund Brothers to Sharps Rifle company dated May 9, 1877 from Cheyenne Wyoming. Remington does not make a 40-90 for two reasons, 1st is thier breech will not stand the charge. The next sentance really spells it out. It may be interesting perhaps to give you a little history of an accident that occured to a man at Red Canyon, Wyo. last fall while using the .40 calibre gun of Remington make. The gun had been re-chambered by someone in Denver Colorado to take 90 grains of powder and while shooting it the breech block was blown out and the operator instantly kilt. Some of his deseased complained to Remington and in reply they stated that they would be in no way responsible for accidents occuring to thier .40 calbre rifles which had been re-chambered for 90 grains. To me this means they knew it could not take the charge-pressure. I think the person that did the work was a good gunsmith and just did not realize the rifles shortcomings. I'm not writting this to scare anyone from building up a large caliber rolling block, just be carefull and use good loads, I had a 45-90 for awhile. It is since gone with the barrel separated from the receiver. Mike

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Danish Rolling Block catastrophic failure....

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