bbl inspection marks
inspection and proof marks
Serial number, you can also see the production date of the bbl 1/74
Roundel
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Gary D |
more mkI pics |
Lead | |
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while it's apart for cleaning, I took a few more pictures of the markings that are typically obscured by the forearm.
bbl inspection marks
inspection and proof marks
Serial number, you can also see the production date of the bbl 1/74
Roundel
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BillOregon |
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Very nice photos. Thanks for sharing your well-proofed gun.
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coggansfield |
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26 Nov. 2008
12:55pm Gary, your rifle's serial number of I 6500 conclusively puts it in the midst of the "Canadian cache" of rifles. We pretty much knew this already, but it's nice to have proof. Anyone who knows me knows that I am a compulsive collector of serial numbers. My collection of Canadian cache numbers - just numbers, not rifles, sadly - runs from I 3214 to I 6660. Each has an 1873-dated receiver and a barrel dated Jan. 1874 ("1/74"). A quick bit of arithmetic tells us that the span represented by these serial numbers is 3,535, way more than the 2,100 shipped to Canada, so obviously the rifles were not taken out of store sequentially before shipping to the Canadians. By the time we get to the J series of mk. I rifles, we find the following. (The two I have seen ended up as mk. IIs in Afghanistan.) The receivers are still dated 1873 (and once had the brass pin), but the barrels are now dated Mar. 1874 ("3/74"). While the I series all seem to have been issued with trials-pattern cleaning rods, by the time of the J pattern the mk. I service rod had taken over (cammed shoulder and a squarer head). The mk. I rod was approved in Feb. 1874 and appears immediately to have superseded the trials rod. Nice rifle. Congrats. Coggansfield.
Last Edited By: coggansfield
11/26/08 09:59:56.
Edited 2 times.
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rough shots |
more mk1 pics | ||
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not wanting to take away from this thread, but where can i trace the serial no of my mk1?, is there a resource bank on the internet,
thanks, colin |
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coggansfield |
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26 Nov. 2008
5pm No single source that I know of, Colin. You just have to be thoroughly anal, as I am, and collect serial numbers onto a spreadsheet over the years (mainly from reading threads such as this one, day in, day out). However, if you send me details, I'll tell you what I can about your rifle. Either post the info here or, if you're not wild about giving out serial numbers, e-mail me at munro@intergroupservices.com. The lowest serial numbers I have run into are MHR mk. I Enfield made #6 and MHR mk. I LSA made #6. The Enfield one is in north America and is still a bona fide MHR mk. I. The LSA one is mine and it was converted into a .303 cavalry carbine in the 1890s. Coggansfield |
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Gary D |
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Colin, you're not taking away at all. As a matter of fact I was wondering, of the Canadian MkI's and III's how many are currently accounted for by
your records?
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coggansfield |
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27 Nov. 2008
12:30am I am afraid I don't have serial number info on many mk. Is. Martinis are difficult to get serial numbers from, if you are just looking a photos, because the number is hidden under the wood. On, for example, Lee-Enfields, it is visible above the wood (and so I have loads of Lee serial numbers). I have serial numbers of five Canada cache MHR mk. Is, plus two J series Afghans, plus one or two others. The oldest Martini I myself possess is an 1872 B series 2nd pattern (early) rifle, converted to mk. II somewhere along the way. Its serial number is B 5335. The barrel is dated 11/72. (LSA s/n 6, now a .303 carbine, is despite its low number newer than this. Its manufacture date is worn off, but we can date it from the serial number to autumn 1873.) My Canada cache rifle, s/n I 6660, is the highest numbered of the Canuck rifles I have seen. The two J series rifles I mentioned are numbered J 5381 (sold on Gunbroker.com several months ago) and J 6153 (mine). Both are now mk. IIs. Serial numbers are fascinating. I simply cannot understand why women aren't enraptured by this stuff! Coggansfield
Last Edited By: coggansfield
11/26/08 21:34:06.
Edited 2 times.
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Gary D |
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Now that I have her cleaned up here are some more images
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Gary D |
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Would the Canadian govt. have received bayonets with these? And if so what model is most likely?
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GrantR Canada |
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First, the "academic dissertation" -
Neither of my references dealing specifically with Canadian military longarms ("Defending the Dominion: Canadian Military Rifles, 1855-1955" by David W. Edgecombe, and "The Military Arms of Canada" compiled by The Upper Canada Historical Arms Society) make any mention of bayonets for the Martini-Henry rifles acquired in either 1874 or 1885. However, it was certainly the common practice to acquire suitable bayonets with military longarms, the bayonet being such an important part of military tactics at that time. The Pattern 1876 triangular-bladed socket bayonet which became the standard for the Martini-Henry during its period of service, as its designation suggests, wasn't finalized until June of 1876 (List of Changes 2953) - mind you, like many British weapons and other bits of kit, it may actually have been in production for some period of time before its formal adoption date. However, I'd say it is pretty certain that such bayonets wouldn't have been in production when the MkI rifles came to Canada. Since none of these rifles was issued right away, however, it is entirely possible the P'76 bayonet would have been readily avaialble, and used, when any of the Canadian rifles were finally issued. As you likely know, IMA have original P'76 bayonets for sale for about US$45. Like many such antique bladed weapons, they don't come with scabbards, but IMA sell a reproduction scabbard. Before the P'76 was available, the bayonet used with M-H rifles was the Pattern 1853 ssocket bayonet designed for use with the muzzle-loading .577 cal P'53 Enfield rifle (and which continued in use with the Snider-Enfield cartridge conversions) Its larger-diameter socket was bushed to fit the Martini-Henry barrel. http://www.martinihenry.com/bayonets.htm Although a P'76 bayonet certainly will "do", my strong feeling is that having lucked into this very nice early MkI rifle it would definitely be worthwhile to try to mate it up with a "proper" bushed P'53 bayonet. I'd have thought that the chances of finding an original bushed P'53 bayonet in decent shape - let alone with a scabbard that is even useable - would be very slim .... but then that's what I though about finding a checkered buttplate, wasn't it! Believe it or not, Collector's Source (in Canada) has precisely such a bayonet currently listed for sale - in very nice shape and with a very respectable scabbard, from the looks of the pictures!!!
It is item B401, third item down on this page of their website - http://www.collectorssource.com/category.asp?catid=4 If you click on the little camera icon, it'll bring up several photos, from which the above was taken. However, for some reason, the site seduces all such photos in width, making every item distorted. However, just right-click on each picture, and then select "view image" to see an undistorted image. (This assumes a Windows-based PC system, but some sort of similar procedure should be usable on your system if you run something different.) I'd say that their price, at $225, is actually quite reasonable for a bushed P'53 in such nice shape, with scabbard. Jump on this! (By the way, have you bought those lottery tickets yet? )
Grant Rombough
Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
Last Edited By: GrantR Canada
11/28/08 15:09:04.
Edited 1 times.
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The Double D |
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Checkered but plate aon one screw went out in the morning mail.
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Gary D |
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Thanks DD I owe you one.
Grant, would a barrel band screw from an 1876 socket fit the '53 socket? they have another bushed '53 without scabbard and missing the screw for $75, which might fit my budget a bit better since apparently my luck just ran out, as one car has been diagnosed with a bad cylinder and the other had a high speed impact with a suicidal deer on Thursday ( can you say $700 deductible). Admittedly I'm still tempted as with the $225 I'm still below the IMA price I had counted on for the mkII, just sneaking that past the wife right now might be tough. Women, why can't they understand it's history we're dealing with here, not simply toys and amusement. Edit: OK I agree entirely this rifle is too nice a piece to add a second rate bayonet when a correct one in equally good condition is available. I buckled and ordered it, just hope I can sneak it past the wife.
Last Edited By: Gary D
11/28/08 20:32:54.
Edited 1 times.
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GrantR Canada |
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Gary D wrote:Way to go, Gary! In the long run, I'm sure you won't regret it. (Actually, I am playing the Devil here, wanting to ensure that the bayonet and rifle get mated up so I can see them together, and hopefully play with them too, at no personal expense! )
By the way, I've been meaning to be downright nosy and ask what you paid for the rifle (by private e-mail, if that would be preferable) ...... but if you are still under what you would have paid for a short lever M-H rifle and P'56 bayonet from IMA, with spending $225 for the Collector's Source bushed P'53 bayonet, then I'd say you practically stole this rifle!!!!
Grant Rombough
Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
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Gary D |
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I find that when people show up and start bragging about a nice rifle they found and what a steal they got it for they tend to come across as a jerk. And get
treated accordingly. This seems to be a really fantastic group and one I hope to become a regular part of. The gist of it is the seller was a guy who buys
every piece of junk that he can drag out of a barn of shed, and only has a vague idea of what things are worth (and likely only pays similar I would suspect).
They go on his table in "as found" condition. Some of his prices are insulting, and other times they're bargains. With the IMA selling Hand
select Martini's for $650. that's what I've noticed at the last couple shows I've been to most Martini's regardless of condition or mark
are being priced at and usually in lesser condition mkIV. (admittedly I myself wouldn't really know much more than that until very recently) As such for a
dirty incomplete Martini Henry rifle he was only asking $600, and practically leaped over the table for the $550 I offered.
Last Edited By: Gary D
11/29/08 10:35:57.
Edited 1 times.
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Gary D |
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GrantR Canada wrote:Actually I doubt I'll regret it even in the short term. I might regret the wife finding out how much I paid, but I doubt I'll ever question the purchase. |
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GrantR Canada |
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I hear where you are coming from on your reticence to "brag" about price. Mind you, I suspected you got a very good deal, and just wanted to punish
myself even more with envy .....
![]()
Well, you certainly did well by the seller's lack of knowledge in this case! To my mind, because it is one of the "late second pattern" Canadian Mark I's, the price you paid was no more than half what this rifle is really worth, even taking into account the missing buttplate and ramrod, and the hole in the underside of the forestock. Well done! That brings up something else - Gary hasn't mentioned it here yet but in private communications, "between neighbors" as it were, he has asked what I know about the hole in the underside of the forestock just ahead of the triggerguard (as shown in the last photo in post #7.) He indicates that it is about 1/4" in diameter at the opening, although it is not that full diameter for its whole length I gather, goes in at an angle and joins with "a perpendicular hole extending from the inletting inside the forearm for the forearm pin retaining tab" From that, I understand he means that it connects with the inlet for that lug, but if not perhaps he can clarify. I am puzzled by this hole and cannot offer him any insight - other than to confirm that it is "non-standard". If it were smaller, and directly in line with the pin lug recess, I'd think it was perhaps done to introduce a punch to break free a lug which had rusted into its recess, but that wouldn't seem to fit here. Can anyone advise if they've seen something like this before, or offer any suggestions regarding the reason for drilling such a hole?
Grant Rombough
Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
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Gary D |
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Here is a rough diagram of what is being referred to. These are very cleanly done not some bubba style hack job. Red lines show inletting and the mystery
holes, black is approximate barrel and pin-tang. Note the longer diagonal hole does not break through the barrel recess. Well it's just wafer thin and
has a bit of a break in it that I presume to be my fault as I did insert a small screwdriver into it at the show to make sure it did not extend into the
barrel, as I was initially afraid it may have been drilled to deactivate the rifle. Thankfully that fear was unwarranted.
Notice it is slightly off centre partially passing through the cleaning rod hole. Could it have been for storage of a cleaning jag, utilizing the rod as a keeper to keep it from falling out?
Actually the diagram is a bit of an exaggeration the angular hole is not quite that steep and the adjoining hole not that long. If you look at the third picture in the first post on this thread you will see a bit of a nick, I have to admit that was likely me checking . ![]()
Last Edited By: Gary D
11/29/08 14:06:02.
Edited 3 times.
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flyer |
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Hmmm...Could have been drilled to hang verticaly on a wall
Lots of bubbas out there |
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The Double D |
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Saw this on rifles in SA. The rifles were drilled so they slid on pegs so they could hang on walls. Then they had bands that went around the gun so it was
sealed to the wall. But they were all side drilled.
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flyer |
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Took the grandkids to the Royal Ontario Museum a while ago..saw several rifles that were drilled through the forestock and butt.
Was not impressed. Since dollars and cents were brought up I notice martinis are getting somewhat scarse around here and what does show up is rough and pricy. Martini bayonets were going for around $ 120-140 now pushing $ 240 and up.....glad I got my stuff when I did. |
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Gary D |
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so is the consensus that I should properly repair this hole or leave it be.
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