Thanks for any help.









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novarover |
Martini.....what?? |
Lead | |
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Can anyone help me identify this rifle? I know the action is Martini and the stock looks like enfield but I don't know the cal. for sure, or much more
about it. There is a cleaning rod under the stock. The barrel is stamped under the stock with the number 10.3 and I think this is the bore diameter which
works out to .405 cal but I have not found any reference to Martinis being made in .405 cal. A local gun shop identified it as 44-40 cal. and even fired two
rounds of that ammo through it but I can't find reference to Martinis being made in 44-40 cal. either so I'm not sure it's a good idea. Also those
are black powder proof marks on the barrel so assuming it is a 44-40 is it safe to fire modren store bought 44-40 WCF rounds through it? The action looks like
a cadet but I don't really know. I have never seen a Martini action that comes apart with just two thum screws and all in one pice. It's great for
feild cleaning, no tools required. I'd like to shoot this rifle but I need to know what Cal. ammo type, load ect.
Thanks for any help. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
Last Edited By: The Double D 11/07/09 18:00:26.
Edited 2 times.
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The Double D |
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It's a Francotte with Westley Richards Sherwood modification, made in Belgium. That's all I can add.
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novarover |
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Thanks for the quick reply.
Any idea when it would of been made? what were popular calibers for Francotte's? What does the Westley Richards Sherwood modification mean? |
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RichardWV |
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Once you get away from standard issue rifles (whether Brit or elsewise) your find Martinis chamberred in just about any rimmed cartridge that can be crammed
into the action....and a few rimless ones as well. Thanks to Winchester's marketing, the 44-40 was a widely available cartridge in the western world (and
its colonies). So finding one in that caliber wouldn't be surprising. However, without a clear marking to go by, this is where a chamber cast would answer
the question much better than idle speculation on our part.
As to the strength of the action, unless someone can give the specs on that specific action (highly unlikely), it would be speculation as to what its upper end is. However, it is a safe bet that any of these in decent shape would greatly exceed that needed for 44-40. Unlike many designs, the Martini in its many forms largely made a seamless transition to the smokeless age, with the main strength issue being the need to bush the firing pin hole and use a smaller pin, needed to prevent primer blowout on the higher pressure cartridges. Since the 44-40 is a BP round, modern smokeless loads would be loaded accordingly unless specifically noted. Hence modern rounds would be fine....IF it really is in 44-40. Again, barring finding some specific info on what cartridge it is chamberred for, a chamber cast is indicated. |
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The Double D |
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The side plate and cocking indicator are most commonly seen one the Westly Richards Sherwood version and is a modification of the Francotte.
Here is the Westley Richards Sherwood.
The Sherwood does not have action through pins as does yours. I suspect there was strength issues with the Sherwood action and your cross body pins are an attempt to deal with that. Given the history of a close working relationship between Francotte and Francotte, I would not find it hard to believe yours and mine were made by Francotte. Here is the patent info.
Last Edited By: The Double D
11/06/09 17:39:59.
Edited 2 times.
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novarover |
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Thanks a lot for the info Douglas. I've been looking online and found out lot's more information. Have you seen other rifles of this type with the
number "10.3" stamped on the bottom of the barrel? I found one web site that suggests that is the bore diameter in mm. I think I'd like to do a
casting of the bore to determine the exact caliber for sure. What about the "DEPOSE/L.H." proof, I have not been able to identify that either. This
rifle is in very good condition and the bore looks very clean. I'd really like to shoot with this rifle and use it for hunting white tail if possible.
First I need to know exactly what ammo to use and that it is safe. Do you have any tips on how to do a casting of the bore?
Thanks, Ian. |
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PommyB |
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I have used Cerrosafe before with good results. Here's a link to the Brownells catalog page, with instructions. It's not terribly cheap, but it can
be reused over & over.
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=384/Product/CERROSAFE_reg__CHAMBER_CASTING_ALLOY |
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RichardWV |
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Cerrosafe is a quick, easy and relatively cheap method of casting the chamber, since the material is reusable with very little material loss over time. There
are cheaper sources than Brownells for comparable alloys, but unless you are buying quantity, Brownells is probably the best source.
While the instructions mention ensuring the chamber is clean, I'm compelled to mention that chamber condition really is THE major issue if dirty, pitted, rusty or has any wallowed out spots. While Cerrosafe breaks itself free through momentary contraction in a good chamber, in one that has anything to grip, it will be near impossible to get out short of melting it (low temp so no fear of ruining heat treating). It is best to spend extra time making sure the chamber is clean and smooth before casting or you'll just end up doing it after your first casting doesn't work. For pouring it into a chamber one must have a decent funnel or tool at hand. I use a Lee lead dipper that is intended for casting bullets. It normally takes two full dips to fill a typical chamber, done very quickly back to back to avoid one pour cooling before the next. You also may wish to remove the extractor before pouring. While in theory you might not have to, in practice the Cerrosafe is likely to seep in, around and under and thus form a death grip on it. I broke a Tabatier extractor this way....so as is all too often the case, mine is the voice of sad experience. |
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The Double D |
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I was hoping Gert was going to drop in and help use withthe language. I don't think that is DEPOSE but de Pose. The literal French translation is "of
Installation". I think the gunsmith is L.H
So to give you Saturday night entertainment I suggest you look around this sight and see if you can find an L.H. Little Gun B.E. I believe 10.3 is the bore diameter and not the groove. |
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martinibelgian |
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The Déposé is likely from "Marque déposé(e)", as in patented, where L.H. could be the person who patented whatever was patented. Nice one, though...
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gcrank1 |
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As a quick, cheap and user friendly chamber cast use common canning wax. It has more shrinkage for your
measurements but you will get a 3D of your chamber and it wont lock up the extractor or into a chamber ring. Handle with care, both in the hot pour stages and after cooling and removal as the soft wax deforms easily. After trying this, and it might take a couple of trys getting thru the learning curve, you can decide if you want to order the Cerrosafe (good stuff). While you wait for it you now have something to work with. |
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novarover |
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Thanks for the help everyone. I'm going to try a wax cast first just to get some practice at it. Latter I might try the Cerrosafe.
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novarover |
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Well I have the results of the chamber cast. I used a set of foam ear plugs to seal the barrel, set about four inches past the chamber opening. Roll the ear
plugs between your fingers to compress them, in a few seconds they expand to fill in the barrel. Then I used wax to make the casting and it gave a very good
impression of the shape of the chamber. I'm far more confidant now that this rifle is a 44-40. I know the wax casting will not be as accurate as
cerrosafe but just seeing the shape of the chamber and how it is made for a short round with no neck helps a lot. I feel pretty safe about using this ammo in
this rifle now.
Thanks a lot everyone for all the help. Ian.
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The Double D |
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Since a target Market for Francotte was South America it is very likely that you are correct, Try it and get back to us.
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gcrank1 |
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There really is something about being able to see that representation of the chamber, rather than the two
dimensional prints, to give a fellow some confidence. Glad the wax worked out for you. |
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novarover |
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It is the "10.3" clearly stamped on the bottom of the barrel that makes me wonder. If that were the bore diameter then it's to small for a 44-40
which has a diameter of .427 in (10.8 mm). I've been concerned that this was a .405 Win (diameter 0.4115 in (10.45 mm) Overall length 3.175 in (80.6 mm))
but the casting shows it's clearly not chambered for such a long round. I thought it might of been a .38-40 Win (diameter .401 in (10.2 mm) derived from
the .44-40 using the same case just necked down, differing only .026 in (0.66mm) in bullet diameter) but the
chamber cast shows it's not made for a round that is necked down the way a .38-40 is. Also my casting has the bore diameter at 10.7 mm and being made out
of wax, has likely shrunk smaller that the actual bore. This makes the 10.2mm .38-40 just a little to small. I'm not sure what the "10.3" means
but I think it's a safe bet 44-40 ammo is alright to use in this rifle.
Ian. |
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The Double D |
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The wax casting gives you some place to look but it is not definitive. Do not rely on a wax casting to give you the correct cartridge. Do you self a favor and
slug the bore with a lead slug and measure it. Get your self some cerro safe and do a proper casting. Take you measurement from that. This realy isn't the
place for shade tree engineering.
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gcrank1 |
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Sure looks like a 'proper' casting to me, and very well done, at that. I concede that Cerrosafe is the (perhaps)
ideal product and this an expedient, but hardly 'shade tree' engineering. If your measurements with Cerrosafe vary significantly I will be very surprised. We have had measurements be within .001" on each of three wax vs Cerrosafe comparisions. (.32, 11mm Mauser, .43 Spanish calibers) If you havent yet, please do slug the bore as DD says. You need the whole picture before popping a load off. To return to your cal. marking , could it be that the 10.3 is a poor stamping of what should have been 10.8? Could it have been a 38-40 at origin, then rebored to 44-40 due to the same parent cartridge & not remarked? Note: edited with actual results of casting measurements once I found my record.
Last Edited By: gcrank1
11/17/09 08:30:34.
Edited 4 times.
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Jim Durling |
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A very nice rifle as regards when it was made, the Proof mark with the crown was I believe post 1895, but can't be more accurate. The Little gun site does
have a lot of info on Belgian made guns.
Jim |
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gcrank1 |
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I have a note from the past (sorry, I did not write down from what ref.) that the LEG over a star within
an oval is pre Oct.1898. The crown over oval then followed, but I have no note as to when it ended. |
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The Double D |
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I finally found the website that Ryan put up some time ago that might help with this: http://damascus-barrels.com/files/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.pdf Top picture from left to right Crown over R Designates rifled barrel. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. Since 1924 used on all rifled arms Star over A L Example of an Inspector's mark which could be any letter of the alphabet 1877 - present Perron (pillar on pedestal)The Perron, sole proof mark until dropped in 1810, Since 1853 used to indicate inspection or proof of breeching system. Not used on revolvers. Can be either of these. Crown over oval with ELG and star Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. In now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders. 1893 - present The bottom of the barrel marks are for rifles and other than the script E L are not found inthe linked chart which is primarly for shotguns Intertwined script E L is Replace #5 for provisional proof of barrels.Since 1924 reserved for smooth bores, 1852 - present (Look at linked document to see what Mark #5 is) In the Trade mark page http://damascus-barrels.com/files/Belgian_Trade_Marks.pdf L.H is Lochet Henri or Halleux Louis The AE I don't recall, but if it is AF it is August Francotte. |
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