http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r317/arquebus1523/territorials2.jpg
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PommyB |
Martini ID from photo....new bigger photo!! |
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Hello all, I'm posting a photograph I've had since as far back as I can recall. The photo was taken some time before WW1 in Lincolnshire, England
& it shows a group of young men in military uniform, along with the adult leaders. The boys are all carrying Martini carbines, I think a cavalry model but
I'm not very 'up' with all the different patterns, so am seeking your help. Along with all the Martinis' the best part of the picture is that
it features both of my Grandads when they were lads: middle row third from the right is my maternal grandfather Tom Reeves (b.1901), & front row second
from the left is my Dad's father Alf Robinson (b.1899). Grandad Reeves died in 1981, but I had asked him one time about the caliber of the carbines &
he said they were .303s.
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r317/arquebus1523/territorials2.jpg
Last Edited By: PommyB 11/04/09 13:46:46.
Edited 3 times.
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GrantR Canada |
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Well, likely not too terribly long before WWI - they appear to me to be wearing the Pattern 1908 Service Dress tunic, which had sewn-on shoulder straps (rather
than the detachable version on the Pattern 1902 SD tunic.)
Not the best picture, but the carbines appear to me to be Martini-Henry cavalry carbines - based on position and configuration of the front band, nosecap, and bayonet lug, diameter of the barrel, and the fact that they appear to have clearing rods in place. (Clearing rods had been declared obsolete for all .303 caliber rifles and carbines in 1899 ....)
Grant Rombough
Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
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PommyB |
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So, they'd be .577/.450 caliber then?"...the carbines appear to me to be Martini-Henry cavalry carbines" |
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GrantR Canada |
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I believe so ..... unless the original barrels got sleeved, or something like that .....
Grant Rombough
Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
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Herbert Rogers |
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Gut feeling makes me believe they are .450 Martini Henry Artillery Carbine Mark
11's, a conversion from the MH Rifle Mark 11. Look at Page 137 of Volume 1 of ATOTBMM by Temple and Skennerton. Pay particular attention to the presence of
a bayonet lug and post front sight without wings plus the unique MH AC Mk 11 cleaning rod all of which are unique to this MH Pattern refer to pages 138 and
141.
Cheers Herb Rogers In anticipation.
Last Edited By: Herbert Rogers
11/04/09 20:13:53.
Edited 2 times.
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herbert |
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i agree that the carbines are artillery cabines ,mark II,a freind has one and he told me it was a cadet carbine
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coggansfield |
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4 Nov. 2009
11:55pm I'm with the Herbs. The bayo lugs make then arty carbine of some sort and they certainly look to have the chunky appearance of the mk. II, not the more streamlined mk. I. Coggansfield |
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GrantR Canada |
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Ooops!!! Meant to type "Artillery", of course. Why I typed "Cavalry" is beyond me.
Sheesh - I even commented on the bayonet lug .... which certainly wouldn't be on a cavalry carbine, of course!
Grant Rombough
Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
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Herbert Rogers |
Images of a MH AC Mark 11, | ||
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Well my schedule has been shot to hell and will be busy tomorrow and the week end at the Brisbane Arms Fair then family chores Monday and Tuesday. So as promised I took some pictures, done this evening with the flash and they are sufficient until I can reshoot in daylight.
The distinguishing markings are as follows; Steel butt disc signifies issue to Cadet units, dated 11/00. Butt is the original MH R Mark 1 and joined. RHS of butt is the Enfield roundel over II, over 2 for second grade and cancelled out, over DP. Firing pin has been docked.
RHS of the receiver, Crown over B.S.A. & M. Co. over 1874, over II with the additional I located to the left, over 2 cancelled out. The receiver bridge is marked S-X. Nocks form marked D.P. plus * for rust. RHS on nocks form R S 2. LHS of nocks form LS and the double arrow for sale mark.
As the right hand side pictures illustrate, the fore-end, front band, nose cap and cleaning rod are unique to this MH Artillery Carbine.
Cheers Herb Rogers
Last Edited By: Herbert Rogers
11/05/09 03:51:36.
Edited 1 times.
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PommyB |
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Herbert, that was very informative, thanks. I noticed the buttstock on your carbine has been shortened & then relengthened, why would that have been done?
The 'unmarked' MH I just received this week from IMA also has the stock repaired in that manner. You also mentioned that the firing pin had been
docked, was that common practice on Cadet-issued rifles? Would it be your opinion that the carbines in the photo are M-Hs in .577/.450 rather than M-Ms or M-Es
in .303 caliber?
Last Edited By: PommyB
11/05/09 10:08:46.
Edited 1 times.
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JB White |
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One reason may be that the butt was broken during square bashing. (Note the DP marking). It was a common armorers repair to lop off a hunk and fit a new piece
as a replacement. I've seen some very nice full length vertical dovetails on some British rifles repaired in such a manner.
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Herbert Rogers |
Joined Stock Butt on MArtinis! | ||
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BUTT AND ASSOCIATED PARTS The M-H rifle, in accordance with the previous practice, was supplied with two lengths of butt - classed as "short" and "long" - which were intended to accommodate men of different stature, and so with short or long arms. The original lengths supplied - short 13 inches; and long, 14 inches; issued in the proportions of 2/3 short and 1/3 long. The quoted lengths were fitted to Rifle 1, First and Second Patterns. The troop trials of the second pattern rifles resulted in complaints of shortness of stock with resulting recoil problems, so trials were carried out with lengthened butts, causing the adoption on 17-7-1874 of short butts of 14 inches, and long butts of 14½ inches. The proportions of these were as originally issued, but the pressure from some regiments forced the decision in December 1874 for reversal the proportion to 2/3 long and 1/3 short, for future manufacture. Increasing the length meant that the original long butt became the new short butt, so no problems resulted, apart from the necessity to adjust output figures to accommodate stocks on hand; however, this left considerable numbers of the original short butts in store, which were too valuable to discard. They were subsequently increased in length to 14 inches by having a piece added to the bottom end. This was 1½ inches thick, and was screwed and glued to the original stock, which was reduced ½-inch in length to remove the butt plate tang recess, so as to give the new piece a clean face to butt against. The altered stocks are easily recognized by the joint in the wood, and the different grain formation of the two pieces. (NOTE: The Butt length quoted is not the actual length of the wood, but is the distance measured from the outer face of the butt plate at its centre, to the tip of the trigger. This is sometimes referred as the "reach" or "pull" of the butt.) Included with the text are two pictures in B&W showing the retaining screws in place, plus the join line and the filled swivel hole. I have a
number of Martinis with this jointed butt feature, with the earliest being a Martini Henry Rifle Mark 1 dated 1872, Upgraded to Second and then Third Pattern.
The rifle is Ex Temples collection and shown in Volume 1, Page 87, Figure 2, of the "British Military
Martini" series.
Skennerton and Temple have included information on the subject of Joined Butt Stocks in their third volume of "A Treatise on the British Military Martini " Volume 111, pages 489 to 491. I have taken the liberty of transcribing the information from Volume 111 verbatim. Cheers and Happy Collecting Herb Rogers
Last Edited By: Herbert Rogers
11/05/09 12:32:52.
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Herbert Rogers |
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PommyB wrote "You also mentioned that the firing pin had been docked, was that common practice on Cadet-issued rifles? Would it be your opinion that the carbines in the photo are M-Hs in .577/.450 rather than M-Ms or M-Es in .303 caliber?" Yes, the docking of the firing pin is quite common for rifles and carbines used mainly for drill purpose and or bayonet practice. Other methods of deactivation include a saw cut just forward of the nocks form together with firing pin deactivation, inserting a pin transversely through the chamber, plugged chamber, removal of the breech block. Cheers
Herb Rogers |
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Zulu Neil |
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Herb
don't forget the ubiquitous nail banged into the firing pin hole from the rear and NOT FOR BALL stamped on the knocksform! I have taken apart one of those two part stocks, the screws are a unique cheese headed affair, above and below the normal buttplate screws. Mine had the Birmingham 1891 roundel stamped across the joint, I'll post some images. In the pic, the trooper front row far left, can I see the forend hook of a Mk3?, if so he has a MHGC Mk3. sad I am that I end up with magnifying glass and sore eye! |
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Herbert Rogers |
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Hello Neil I must admit, I have not come across ubiquitous nail banged into the firing pin hole from the rear in combination with NOT FOR BALL stamped on the nocksform! I can understand the dilemma the Armorers may have had when dealing with deactivation for use by Cadets who possessed great ingenuity, bless their little souls! Cheers Herb
Last Edited By: Herbert Rogers
11/13/09 06:15:11.
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80thFoot |
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If we are comparing MHAC 2s here's my stock extension, This Martini was resurrected from deactivation (chamber cut) and fully repaired. From what i know this was a BSA 1876 Mark II that was modified into a carbine and reissued in April 1896 for Royal Artillery Militia use.
By the way i have a newly made cleaning rod with it. This is a clip of me shooting it, When fired with rifle loads it earns the nickname "The Beast" http//www.youtube.com/user/450martini#p/a/u/0/FKIDsSuLgmY [Moderator Note - Not sure if everyone was having the same problem, but only the thumbnails were appearing for me, without being able to link successfully to the full-size images. I have edited so the full photos appear. GrantRCanada]
Last Edited By: GrantR Canada
11/13/09 09:22:04.
Edited 2 times.
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The Double D |
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THe thumbnails were opening for me when I clicked on them. You know how obsessive I am about picture postin!
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Herbert Rogers |
Another method of deactivation! | ||
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I can recall another method of deactivation, the method included machining both the block body and breach face plus the removal of the front portion of the firing pin flush with the collar. I saw it
on Ebay recently and it closed on the 29th October 2009. I checked this morning 15th November and it is still available to view including one picture.
Cheers Herb Rogers |
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JB White |
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I don't know if this is exactly legal or not, but I took the liberty of directly linking the pic for educational purposes.
Interesting deact and not reversible. http://i.ebayimg.com/04/!BccRRCgBGk~$(KGrHqMH-DcEqw2h-WdLBK0hm+3+Q!~~_12.JPG Herb, thank you for the info. |
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