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gcrank1	Replacement Stocks	Lead	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 320 (11/03/09 10:00:53) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None I just talked with Dick Greensides of: Pecatonica River Longrifle Supply Rockford, IL 815-968-1995 E-dress: sales@longrifles-pr.com He has a stock duplicator and air dried stock blanks and makes many of the stocks used in custom muzzle loaders and even some BPCRs, including a Martini sporting stock. He is open to the idea of making replacements for original Martinis if someone can send him a pattern stock even if it has bondo on it to fill damage. He is a man you can trust and work with. Tell him Blake referred you.
myrifle		#1	[-]
Corporal Posts: 42 (11/04/09 08:09:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think you should post this in a sticky thread, so it won't age off. * This Is My Rifle *
The Double D		#2	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 5483 (11/04/09 08:20:16) Moderator Emeritus Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	No sticky!!! I just got of the phone with Pecatonica. First they are not Martini knowledgable, they are stock makers. They have buttstock patterns for small Martini's and the Martini Enfield but not the Martini Henry. When they described the ME stock what they described was pistol grip roll over cheek piece sporter stock. Not a military stock at all. They can duplicate an original stock, but can not gaurentee the duplicated stock will not be damaged as the tracer pin on the duplicator is metal and can and will scratched the stock being traced. They seem very confident that they can duplicte the Martini Henry buttstock. Just about any Stock duplicator can do that one. The Forestock is another issue. First of course which stock to duplicate. Mk II with cross pins or MK III with forestock tenon? Most likely the MKII since that is the rifle most found on the market. They said they can duplicate every aspect of the Martini for stock except the cross pin holes and the clearning rod hole. They did not say they cannot do the holes, they said the would need to look at the fore stock first before saying yes or no. They were very hesitant to even ventrue a guess about being able to do the clearning rod hole. They did say they do not have a gundrill . A gundrill is the only way to assure you get a straight hole this deep. Twist drill are just too flexible to do this in repeatedly and accurately. Since they don't have the right equipment to do a full military forestock, I don't think I could recommend these folks. They have a good reputation for doing some excellent work and for just about anything else, I think you would be very happy with there product, justnot this project. You guys with the rotted out Gahendra stocks, might bondo one up and send it to Pecatonica, I sure they can help you. Douglas ******* To find things Martini go to:Martini Internet Resource List** Last Edited By: The Double D 11/04/09 08:57:53. Edited 1 times.
IMA USA		#3	[-]
O/R Posts: 15 (11/04/09 13:05:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I assume I am missing something, perhaps there is a problem with the stock IMA sells that I am unaware of or is it a price issue? I'd be surprised if its cheaper to engineer a stock from a sample... See the M-H MkI/MkII stock set here: http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php/cPath/29_61_249/products_id/2435 IMA-USA
RichardWV		#4	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 919 (11/04/09 14:26:05) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I can't speak for others, but the fact that they are stained "unknown species of quality hard wood" has put me off of buying a few sets. Particularly when dealing with the pinned forearm of the MK II, the soft wood from deterioration on the Nepal rifles has posed a problem for many that regularly shoot their rifles (I've broken two forearms at the pin). Since many of those received have had repairs in this area, I know you are aware of the issue. What is needed is good quality walnut replacements. As such, concern for the quality of wood used is an issue and the unknown qualities of an unidentified wood costing $175 makes it iffy in my mind. Now I'll be the first to agree that it is unlikely to get good quality walnut at or anywhere near your price for replacement stocks. However I'm skeptical that the new wood would be an improvement over my repaired/reinforced and now glass bedded forearms.....and at this point am unwilling to spend $175 to find out.
gcrank1		#5	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 326 (11/04/09 14:35:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My intention was only to provide an option, since I know Dick Greensides. He has quality wood of various woods and grades and is used to working with the long, delicate fore-arms of longrifles which many of the other stock companies are not. No, he is not a Martini maven, but he knows stocks, woods and duplicating, and he is a shooter of classic rifles, all pluses in my book.
JB White		#6	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 105 (11/04/09 16:03:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	IMA USA wrote: I assume I am missing something, perhaps there is a problem with the stock IMA sells that I am unaware of or is it a price issue? I'd be surprised if its cheaper to engineer a stock from a sample... See the M-H MkI/MkII stock set here: http://www.ima-usa.com/pr..._61_249/products_id/2435 IMA-USA It's not a price issue as the price is very reasonable for decent set of Martini timber. As Richard stated, it's the 'unknown species' that turns some off. Perhaps it's just me, but I read that as a tip-off that the wood might be one of the lower grades from the India subcontinent or Southeast Asia etc. Not the most desirable timber for stocking, but it can work if taking into account the weaknesses. Couple that with the fact they are pre-finished and I was turned off totally. To me that means it not only has to be fitted and fussed with, but also completely stripped to attain the finish I want. I wouldn't mind having a spare set of timber for one of those days when the need might arise, but for now $175 is just a little too much for me to toss into the spares bin and forget about. I'm not trying to come off critical, but you asked and all I'm doing is giving you my honest answer. Respectfully, JB
JB White		#7	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 106 (11/04/09 16:17:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	gcrank1 wrote: My intention was only to provide an option, since I know Dick Greensides. He has quality wood of various woods and grades and is used to working with the long, delicate fore-arms of longrifles which many of the other stock companies are not. No, he is not a Martini maven, but he knows stocks, woods and duplicating, and he is a shooter of classic rifles, all pluses in my book. Being only 90 minutes from Rockford and travelling through there once a month I appreciated the info. Perhaps he might be able to do some scarce handguards for other rifles.
lock n larry		#8	[-]
Corporal Posts: 66 (11/04/09 16:26:05) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I ordered one of the $175 replacement stocks recently from AC, thinking I could adapt and fit it to the untouched Francotte-style MH rifle I was restoring. However, I ended up sending it back. There were two issues that were show-stoppers for me: First, the buttstock was considerably shorter at the butt end than the Francotte, Gehendra, and genuine Martini Henry buttstocks by about 5/8ths of an inch., causing problems fitting the butt plate, and shortening the overall length of the finished rifle. Second, in the forearm piece, the barrel channel was too narrow at the breech end to fit the Francotte (it would fit the genuine Mk I & Mk II barrels okay since they are narrower, but not the Francotte or Gehendra), and it was bowed somewhat over its total length, curving away from the barrel. It could probably be forced into line with the barrel bands, but I thought it would still leave a noticeable gap at the end cap. They are made by Windlass in India, so I don't know what kind of wood it is either. I also don't know if IMA's version would have the same issues, but I suspect they all come from the same source.
The Double D		#9	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 5484 (11/04/09 16:56:45) Moderator Emeritus Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	gcrank1 wrote: My intention was only to provide an option, since I know Dick Greensides. He has quality wood of various woods and grades and is used to working with the long, delicate fore-arms of longrifles which many of the other stock companies are not. No, he is not a Martini maven, but he knows stocks, woods and duplicating, and he is a shooter of classic rifles, all pluses in my book. No apersions cast, Mr. Greensides is well known and highly respected in his specialty. They know stocks, they just don't know Martini stocks. And nothing wrong with your reference. It's just that they express reluctance to take on the forestock. Douglas ******* To find things Martini go to:Martini Internet Resource List**
IMA USA		#10	[-]
O/R Posts: 16 (11/05/09 10:06:12) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This is all very helpful information. We have rebuilt a few M-Hs using these replacement stocks with good success, but then again, we aren't taking them out to shoot, just hanging them on a wall. The wood is actually pretty darn good, but alas they are NOT walnut. The stain is a good point and if we ever run another batch, we won't have them stained! Thanks for the helpful insight. IMA-USA
NORMSUTTON		#11	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 293 (11/05/09 10:48:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	IMA USA wrote: This is all very helpful information. We have rebuilt a few M-Hs using these replacement stocks with good success, but then again, we aren't taking them out to shoot, just hanging them on a wall. The wood is actually pretty darn good, but alas they are NOT walnut. The stain is a good point and if we ever run another batch, we won't have them stained! Thanks for the helpful insight. IMA-USA I think that's an excellent idea NORM N.R.A. LIFE MEM. 1976 NORMSUTTON@AOL.COM Global Mod & Resident Smith on these boards http://p64.proboards67.com/ http://olderthendirt.proboards84.com/index.cgi
JB White		#12	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 109 (11/05/09 11:37:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes...Great idea! Double check to make sure the butts are the correct LOP as well. Hopefully somebody didn't use a "shortie" as a pattern. Measuring the ones you have already restored is a good place to check.
lock n larry		#13	[-]
Corporal Posts: 67 (11/05/09 14:56:32) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JB White wrote: Yes...Great idea! Double check to make sure the butts are the correct LOP as well. Hopefully somebody didn't use a "shortie" as a pattern. Measuring the ones you have already restored is a good place to check. I will certainly second that! The short buttstock was the major problem with mine.
RichardWV		#14	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 920 (11/05/09 20:28:46) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	IMA USA wrote: This is all very helpful information. We have rebuilt a few M-Hs using these replacement stocks with good success, but then again, we aren't taking them out to shoot, just hanging them on a wall. The wood is actually pretty darn good, but alas they are NOT walnut. The stain is a good point and if we ever run another batch, we won't have them stained! Thanks for the helpful insight. IMA-USA I appreciate the sincere efforts being made by IMA to provide a desirable product at an affordable price. However the majority of the folks here shoot most of what they collect. While IMA (like most large dealers in antique firearms) understandably distances themselves from such, this is the primary market here. As such, the durability of the wood for a shooter is a central concern along with the finish....which on original MH rifles was quite light compared to what the majority reflect 130 years later after less than ideal storage. An unfinished fully inletted stock from a known and clearly identified stock grade hardwood would have a better reception....particularly since the only example reported on here came with a warped forearm, which would ruin accuracy from the unequal pressure on the barrel IF it could be forced into place. While $175 may appear to be a good deal to restore a wall hanger, I'd rather pay $200+ for proper wood for a shooter (as I would for Gahendra wood as well if you consider making a run). Last Edited By: RichardWV 11/05/09 20:58:33. Edited 2 times.
Zulu Neil		#15	[-]
Colour Sergeant Posts: 270 (11/09/09 02:57:10) Sergeant Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I have had five stock sets from ACC, and to be fair the quality is quite good, however there are some points which need addressing when you get them. The project I am doing is an 1893 MH Mk2 from HRB in 450/577. The finish appears to be a colour stain/varnish and is far too dark, I gave the wood 24 hour with Nitromors gel paint stripper, the type specifically for antiques, after 24 hours the colour stain had come away in a stick goo, a rinse in water revealed a beautifully grained hardwood, and my is it hard!. Actually quite close to natural walnut. It is that hard that an application of Tru-oil needs a week to set, but the result is looking superb. I haven't tried linseed yet, but I suppose the temps over here in blightly are not condusive with quick drying in November. I did find spay tru-oil being a little thinner did absorb better for in initial coats. 1) Forends: These are pre-prepared for the rod and the lug hole fixing of the Mk1-3 M-H, the barrel channel does require alot of opening out with a circular rasp or file as the recess in not deep enough and it site away from the barrel. The nosecap preparation needs further work and the final 70mm of the forend to the cap is too chunky. That said after an hour in the toolshed I got very good results. I had to enlarge the recess in the forend for the lug hole, being very careful that the drilling I did for the cross pin was in line, ugh, it wasn't! as the position of the hole varied by a millimeter or so as the wood was still sitting a touch proud, in the event I made a new cross pin from a 6" nail, blued it and gave it a slight bend, that did the trick. Beware on storage two of my five have wharped badly due to moisture. 2) Stocks: As already mentions the stocks are 5/8 or 15mm short, and it is noticeable, I also found the stock was too thick at the grip both widthwise and depthwise, again the rasp and sanding did the trick. The drilling for the stock cup is in the wrong place, it is 1/2" 13mm to far back, but I tapped the lever hook until it located. OK this sound a bleat, but for the money it was not that bad, I will post the results when I have finished the project, but sor far it is looking very good indeed.
RichardWV		#16	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 940 (11/09/09 05:53:14) Sergeant Major Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The above is a good honest review and highlights the issues. First, the great news on it being truely hard (forgive our suspicions, but replacement wood from India doesn't have a good reputation). However while stained and "fully inletted" it is obvious that some of the inletting is incomplete or dimensionally just in the wrong place. A barrel channel that needs that much wood removed is more than minor fitting required. As such, many stained areas will have to be touched up. Given the difficulties in matching stains, it would be easier for the stock to be unstained.....particularly since the stain is incorrect. Put another way, the stained stock is worth less than one unstained. That and since the barrel channel is a known dimension, it really should be cut right the first time, as should the retention cup. For grins I measured about 10 original cup placements by 4 manufacturers and they were all the same plus or minus an 1/8th of an inch or less. Again a very well know dimension. Given the level of stock making these days, it is just as expensive to get it right as to get it wrong. While many here like projects (to a fault some would say), some of the issues here shouldn't increase cost (and may lower some) on another run and provide a far more satisfying product.
JB White		#17	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 112 (11/09/09 16:28:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	The good side is that the forend needs to have wood removed and not added. Personally I would rather have to fit to a semi-inletted stock than take a chance of getting a sloppy fitting, fully inletted, so-called drop-in, piece of timber. I liked hearing the wood is hard as in dense. No mention of being too open grained or brittle for a rifle stock. (like red oak) The buttstock pattern they used in the duplicator definitely needs to be replaced. I've had to bump a lever hook about 1/8th of an inch so it would snap into the cup. However having to move it 1/2 inch or more would surely have me hesitating to even try.

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