Can you use 45 Colt brass in the Mark VI Webley

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clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#21	[-]
O/R Posts: 9 (08/08/09 14:08:23) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	OK...here are some photos I just took. The two rifles that came with it are a bit more challenging to photograph for me. She is serial number 182399...and dated 1915...another wonderful addition to my Great War collection of firearms. The grips are really nice and the ring is there too. The bore is bright and fine with strong lands and grooves. Can't wait to get her started again...she's no virgin of course since she's been shaved..but certainly not abused. It came from an estate of a very old fellow who passed on here in SW Florida.
clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#22	[-]
O/R Posts: 10 (08/08/09 14:12:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts
clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#23	[-]
O/R Posts: 11 (08/08/09 14:13:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts
clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#24	[-]
O/R Posts: 12 (08/08/09 14:15:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I'm not sure I can figure this out.....
clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#25	[-]
O/R Posts: 12 (08/08/09 14:15:29) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts
GrantR Canada		#26	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 2253 (08/08/09 14:42:23) Forum Wallah Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Looks like you have it figured out just fine! And she is a grand old girl, indeed! (One thing I have always felt about the Mark VI Webley is that, in addition to being a rugged and very serviceable handgun, If one ran out of ammunition it would also make a pretty passable trench bludgeon!) Grant Rombough Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#27	[-]
O/R Posts: 14 (08/08/09 16:14:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Indeed!
Artillery Art		#28	[-]
Corporal Posts: 72 (08/08/09 17:45:00) Lance Corporal Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	As per Mr. Steve Frey.....go to your local hardware, get yourself a buncha "O"-rings. Various sizes--whatever works for your revolver. Push 'em over the .45 Colt (Long) brass. Try-Try-Try.....Eliminates the setback but KEEP THE PRESSURES/LOADING TO .455 LEVELS!!!! If too thick, then the beastie won't lock home. The key here, will be whatever cylinder "drag" you can live with. Better to get the real brass and real dies. Not the best way to go but do-able with some common sense. Shot a Mark V, unshaved, with this method for hundreds of rounds. No probs. Have Nonte's(generally good) data and Donelly's data (theoretical, not actual) if you need it. It AIN'T a .45 ACP!! Don't try to make it one!! Grant's pics are an undestatement!!
clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#29	[-]
O/R Posts: 15 (08/09/09 07:10:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	es anybody have a photo of an Unshaved cylinder face? I'm beginning to wonder about this revolver I have. I must say that a 45 Colt brass...cut to approximately the same length as a .455, fits so snug in this cylinder, there isn't any room for an "o" ring to increase its depth without jamming the cylinder and making it unable to close? Here are a couple of pics showing the cylinder face and also a side view with a 45 Colt brass in the cylinder - closed. Is this one shaved or not?
clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#30	[-]
O/R Posts: 16 (08/09/09 09:54:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I am wondering if the shaving on these pistols is done differently...on mine, they left just enough of an edge on the ejector plate to catch part of the rim of a shell (see pictures above)...I assume that is why the 45 Colt shell seems to fit fine on the inside part of the rim bering surface (not withstanding the warning above regarding the set back, etc.). I guess the question I have is this : it terms of buying brass for reloading...is it better to buy .455 brass which is available - or - the 45 Auto Rim, which is also available. Also...will this pistol fire standard .455 ammo in the shaved condition it's in? Beacuse I may just as well buy some .455 ammo and after shooting it, reload the brass? Am I making sense here? Last Edited By: clement123 08/09/09 09:57:50. Edited 1 times.
Fred	Mk6	#31	[-]
Sergeant Posts: 108 (08/09/09 10:34:06) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Looking at you pictures, this cylinder has definitely been turned out (to take the half moon clips?). I would go for .45 Auto Rim every time. It may not fire with .455 ammo or it may fire some of the time! Fred
GrantR Canada		#32	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 2254 (08/09/09 10:46:13) Forum Wallah Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Very interesting indeed!!!! This puts a whole new perspective on our discussion! Here is a 'scanner plonk' of the rear face of my Mark VI cylinder (with the extractor star removed so it would sit flat - aqs you have already noted, however, the arms of the extractor star are in fact considerably longer than seems to have been left on your altered revolver ....) - What is fascinating about your altered cylinder is the rim that has been left in place around the circumference during the milling process - to my recollection, that is the first such alteration I have seen or even heard about. The usual alteration for .45ACP/.45AR involved simply milling off the entire rear face, right out to the edge - and also to a greater depth than has apparently been shaved from your cylinder - in order to provide clearance for .45ACP rims in moon clips (or the equivalent .090" thickness of .45AR rims.) Frankly, although I don't know the outside diameter of .45ACP moon clips, I question whether the rim around the edge of your cylinder would even permit their use! In any event, considering the close clearance of an unaltered .45 Colt rim that you describe and illustrate, it is very unlikely that the revolver would properly close up and operate on .45AR or .45ACP in moon clips. I'd say it is a virtual certainty that your cylinder has been specifically altered to use .45 Colt, rather than .45ACP!!!! The potential difficulty with such a conversion (and the likely reason why it wasn't done regularly) is that a .455 Webley cylinder is almost too short for use of .45 Colt ammunition. The cylinder is 1.50" in over all length, whereas the SAAMI-spec OAL of a .45 Colt cartridge is 1.60" (as shown in the diagram posted earlier.) The portion of the rim which occupies the gap between the original rear face of the cylinder and the recoil shield would be just enough to permit a cylinder loaded with .45 Colt to rotate without binding - provided that no over-length cartridges were used. Have you tried to seat a full-length sized .45 Colt case in the chamber? If it will go, that would be pretty good confirmation that this cylinder was specifically altered to accept .45 Colt. The unaltered chambers of a .455 Webley cylinder have a mouth restriction, with a distinctly visible shoulder, that prevents a full-length .45 Colt case from seating fully by at least 1/4". If a full-length case will seat, then that shoulder must also have been machined out of each chamber - which is not necessary for a .45ACP/.45AR conversion. Even if full-length .45 Colt cases won't work, it would seem to me that your revolver was altered to use shortened .45 Colt cases without rim alteration ..... in any event I assume that would be a welcome thing, as you'd be able to use .45 Colt brass .... Grant Rombough Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
GrantR Canada		#33	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 2255 (08/09/09 11:05:04) Forum Wallah Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Forgot to mention - the pressures developed by even factory .45 Colt standard loads are much more within the "comfort zone" than .45ACP - SAAMI maximum recommended chamber pressure for .45 Colt cartridges is 14,000PSI, as opposed to 21,000PSI for the .45ACP ..... Check here - http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm That is a lot closer to the standard operating pressure of .455 service ammunition, which as about 13,000PSI or slightly less, if I recall correctly. Also, it has just occurred to me .... APEX Gun Parts in Colorado list quite a few replacement parts for the Mark VI Webley - including unaltered .455 barrel and cylinder assemblies. Getting one of those would be a little pricey ($235.00) but would give you an convertible revolver - i.e. you could use it 'as is' (likely with .45 Colt cases if my assessment in the above post is correct) and also with ..455 using the replacement assembly. Alternatively, they list extractors complete for $30.00, which you could possibly use (with some thinning of the star arms) in your altered cylinder. https://www.apexgunparts.com/index.php/cPath/28_59?osCsid=ec4a944c7c958b263a2c817dcea1aed6 Grant Rombough Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S"
clement123.curioandrelicfi...	The Plot thickens...	#34	[-]
O/R Posts: 17 (08/09/09 12:12:42) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ah, Grant...I've really piqued your interest here (and others as well, thank you one and all for your input) haven't I. As you can see by the photos, this unique old war horse (which was originally from a Canadian gent who passed away here in Florida), was nicely cut with an outer rim that positively cradles 1/2 moons in a very snug and secure way. It seems to handle both clips AND 45 Colt cartridges IF they are cut down. Full length 45 Colt brass will extend about .28 of an inch from the rim edge of the cylinder...which is no doubt the original edge of the uncut cylinder. I must confess...I ran out yesterday to the range (with my wife very reluctantly in tow) after cutting down about a dozen 45 colt cartridges...BUT I CUT THEM TO 45 auto Rim size!!! which I see now I did not have to do!!!....I just had to try them out since they seemed to fit so well. My load was way too hot for safety BUT NOT over the proof load. I used a 200 grain cast lead .452 SWC (for 45 acp), over 4 gr of Bullseye (!...I can hear you all saying "Yikes" at the same time). It was not very robust al all though I must tell you. It seemed very mild...probably running about 725 fps and well under the PSI danger threshhold. Accuracy was outstanding...grouping in the black center ring at 15 yards each and every one. The only thing was that the vibration ran a screw out of the frame under the cylinder release lever and so I had to end my session being that I couldn't open the cylinder - I can't believe I didn't have a small screw driver with me. The pistol was wonderful to shoot and its action was very smooth. But honestly...this thing works fine with 45 Colt brass. It extracted like a champ and had no problems what so ever. I am sure it would be great with 45 acp/moon clips..but why both? I am still wondering what brass to buy...45 Colt with a little work may be the cheapest...But I assume that both 45 auto Rim and .455 Webley would work since the cylinder has been cut in this ingenous way to accomodate both standard cartridges as well as moon clips. Thoughts?
GrantR Canada		#35	[-]
Veteran of the Regiment Posts: 2256 (08/09/09 14:37:54) Forum Wallah Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Mmmmmm ...... this is getting to be a thick plot for sure ..... Do I take it that you are saying that with .45ACP rounds in moon clips, the revolver will fully close and lock up, and the cylinder will cycle around without them binding on the recoil shield? (I'd have guessed there would be a problem, condidering the apparently very good fit and clearance of .45 Colt rims that you described.) In any event, if shortened .45 Colt brass works reliably, I'd be prone to just use go ahead and use that, rather than incurring the expense and hassle of either acquiring .45AR cases or using .45ACP in moon clips ...... or getting a supply of .455 brass for that matter. It occurs to me that you could play around with various degrees of shortening the .45 Colt brass to see if any particular length shoots better/more accurately than others ..... With the amount of rebate machined into the back of the cylinder - especially if it is enough to work with .45ACP/.45AR - I'd be reluctant to use it with .455 brass, especially some of the older stuff which lacks much if any web thickness and thus is more or less 'balloon-head" (All of my Dominion Cartridge Co. brass is that way, at any rate.) If you think this cylinder is ingenious ..... I present for your consideration my Webley New Model RIC revolver, retailed in 1883, which is clearly marked as being chambered for .455 ..... This revovler has subsequently had a shallow rebate machined into the rear of each chamber which is just large enough to accept the normal rim of a .45 Colt case, and just deep enough that .45 Colt cases chamber with appropriate clearance of the recoil shield ..... yet the wider rims of .455 cases bridge the rebate and rest against the original rear face of the cylinder, rather like this - What's more, because the chambers are "bored through" this revolver will actually chamber full-length .45 Colt rounds. In other words, it has effectively been converted to ".455 Webley/.45 Colt"! I have always been reluctant to fire it with factory-spec .45 Colt ammo, because it is a bit too small and light for that to be a very pleasant experience i fear - yet my references confirm that some New Model RIC revolvers were in fact chambered for .45 Colt! In any event, I can (and do) use either downloaded full length .45 Colt, or shortened .45 Colt cases, without having to modify the rims at all. Grant Rombough Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada ("Rattlesnake Jack Robson", Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, 1885) WEBSITE: "RATTLESNAKE JACK'S" Last Edited By: GrantR Canada 08/09/09 14:41:50. Edited 1 times.
clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#36	[-]
O/R Posts: 18 (08/09/09 15:54:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's a lovely pistol, with an interesting pedigree...sort of an early "multi-tasker" so to speak...I love it. And to answer your query...yes my pistol closes and locks perfectly with both rimmed 45 Colt brass as well as with 45 acp in 1/2 moon clips...see my 3rd and 4th picture above...that is the cylinder locked and easily rotating with moon clips in place loaded with 45 acp. I suppose I'll stick with the 45 Colt and as you say experiment with lengths...my first will be the longest length, Thanks for all your input. Regards, Clement
gcrank1		#37	[-]
Sergeant Major Posts: 124 (08/12/09 08:20:44) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Some years back I made a cylinder spacer of brass for a friends Enfield to take shortened 45Colt cartridges. It worked well enough, just drop over the 'star' with a cartridge in one hole to align and load the rest. You could also make brass rim 'rings' to press down on sized 45Colt brass to thicken up the rim. This is regularly done in creating obsolete ammo from current brass. If you have more time than money the above works. If you buy the right brass you spend more time shooting Resizing may not be neccessary with these low pressure loads. If they eject and rechamber freely after firing then do not resize. Just decap, recap charge and seat the largest dia. bullet that fits the chamber formed brass. That is lead bullet or even a big round ball flush seated with a smear of softish lube across the mouth.
ftr53		#38	[-]
O/R Posts: 2 (08/18/09 19:00:54) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Using Auto-Rim cases to load for a converted Webley is about as convenient as it can be. No trimming or modification required. I use R-P (Remington-Peters) .45 Auto-Rim brass, and load it with 4.5 grains of Unique under the Remington 250-grain lead bullet used in factory .45 Long Colt loads. The Remington slugs are factory-sized to .454" and, when seated to crimp in the forward lube groove, give a nice-fitting, nice-shooting, moderate pressure round to use in the converted Webley. The overall length is 1.28" (Cartridges of the World gives the .455 MkII o.a.l. as 1.23"), and with a bullet which weighs within 15 grains of the original MkII projectile, it shoots to the sights at 15 yards. The Auto-Rim brass should be available from Midway and other mail-order suppliers. I have about 500 cases, which, given my mild loads, should last me a very long while.
PJGP		#39	[-]
Lance Corporal Posts: 28 (08/19/09 10:20:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Clement, speaking of spare parts for your Webley, the barrel catch and its spring are not original. Has the barrel catch been built up or is it completely home made? Peter
clement123.curioandrelicfi...		#40	[-]
O/R Posts: 19 (08/20/09 03:29:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Peter, I believe all parts are completely original.

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Can you use 45 Colt brass in the Mark VI Webley

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