So, can that "1" on my rifle be explained?
Thank you.
Ron
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RonHC |
Question about Martini Henry 1887 with a Mark I rather than Mark IV on receiver |
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I recently acquired a Martini Henry with an 1887 date on the receiver. My understanding was that some Mk IV were converted to 303, then converted back to
577/450. All the ones I have seen in photos have a "IV" under the crown and V.R., and a "1" under that indicating a front line weapon. My
rifle has a "1" above a "1". Also, there is a stenciled C1.V11 on the stock. I saw that very same C1.VII on a Martini Henry being sold on
an Internet antique and old weapons store. There also was a number on that store's stock, cut into the wood, that was in the same range as mine. That
shop's Martini Henry, however, had the usual "IV" over the "1".
So, can that "1" on my rifle be explained? Thank you. Ron
Last Edited By: The Double D 06/14/09 20:57:43.
Edited 1 time.
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Zulu Neil |
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It looks like the I.V has just become obscured or poorly stamped, the 1. is its designation as a 1st class weapon, it is too low to be a Mk designation which
should be under the lock viewers arrow.
I have seen alot of the stencilling on the Mk4's, there is a picture of one of the Military advisors to the Nepal haul holding a stencilled Mk4 in Lagan Silekhana. Regards |
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The Double D |
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Once you clean the varnish of that action you more clearly be able to see MK IV
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coggansfield |
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15 June 2009
12:25pm DD is right. This rifle has a long nocksform, so it must be a B or C pattern mk. IV. The Cs were new made, but the Bs were conversions of second pattern .402 Enfield-Martini mk. I rifles. As such, they were stamped "I" (the Roman numeral) for mk. I, over "1" (the arab digit) for class 1 arm. When converted to mk. IV, a "V" was stamped to the right of the "I" to make "IV." However, the "V" retrostamp on yours, if it is a B Pattern, may be very light. In your case, I don't even think it's a B Pattern. I think it's a C Pattern because the "I" stamp is not centred under the lockviewer's mark (the downward pointing arrow); it is under it and to the left. I think this is a standard C Pattern rifle that just happens to have a lightly stamped "V." Coggansfield |
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RonHC |
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Gentlemen,
Thank you so much for your comments. Can you recommend a technique for removing the varnish? On another Internet site, it was suggested the the C.1 VII stenciled on the stock may be indicative of an Australian unit. Again, Thank You for your Insight, Ron |
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edlee |
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No, not Australian. We did not get any Mk IV's only Mk I,II and III's.
Best way I have found to get off varnish is good old paint stripper or you could try paint thinners. Ed |
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The Double D |
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I wouldn't use stripper it might remove patina or blueing. Try it in a hidden spot first. 0000 and paint thinner with a touch of elbow grease should be
just fine.
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Zulu Neil |
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Edlee
I am finding more and more evidence that the Mk4 was being used in the Navy and Volunteer forces around 1895-1900 in England and around the colonies, and not purely sent to India etc. I have a dated 1898 edition of "Our Army and Navy Illustrated", so very nice shots of the Mk4 in use. Without close ups of the arsenal roundels its difficult to asses, although there does appear to be a 1908 stamp on the stock in relief under the rack numbers, very much like the RP Rawul Pindi stampings found on the Nepal guns. There is also a few similar pics of Mk4's published in the British Militaria section of the site. |
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Viclav |
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Is there any marking on the left barrel beneath the rear sight on this MKIV... N.S. above other initials?
Victor "Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson." |
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RonHC |
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I did see a hint of the "V" next to the "I", just as coggansfield suggested!
Thanks, Ron |
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RonHC |
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I have looked carefully, with a magnifying glass, all over the rifle.
On the left side of the receiver, above the front of the trigger guard, is an "8 77" with the space between the 8 and the two sevens as seen on the rifle. On the left side of the barrel, in very small print, near where the barrel joins the receiver, are a series of symbols. Starting at the point nearest to rear sight and working toward the receiver: What may be a crown above two symbols above what could be a "1.1 or "1.L"; A crown above a V.R. above two, crossed flags, above "21"; A crown above some symbols above a WD with a vertical arrow above it closest to where the barrel joins the receiver. On the rear barrel band is a WD with vertical arrow above it, over a crown, above an "E" above an "82" On the front barrel band is a WD and arrow above an "E" (or "F") above a letter 11 or 1L. On the plate on the underside, in front of the trigger unit, is the WD and vertical arrow above what may be a crown, above some symbols, above what looks like a script "w" or a "11L". Phew! That is all these 62 year old eyes can decipher, even with a magnifying glass. Thanks, Ron |
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coggansfield |
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17 June 2009
5.30pm All the C.1 VII-stencilled mk. IVs I have seen have been from Canada. I do not know the meaning of the stencil, but I have seen it several times -- all at Canadian auctions or on Canadian web sites. See for example: http://www.denner.ca/weapons/longguns/mkiv%204.jpg. Coggansfield |
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edlee |
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Zulu Neil
I would love to find an Ozzie marked MkIV but I have never seen or heard of one. Pre Federation (1901) in Australia, the States were very keen on marking ownership so you would think that any State owned Mk IV would be so marked. I have read that Queensland got Patt 1887 sword bayonets with a batch of MkIII's they reiceved in the 1890's. Ed |
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RonHC |
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I have appreciated all of your comments and suggestions! Thank you.
I am working in South Africa for the month of July and have feelers out for Martini Henry rifles used in SA during the Anglo-Zulu wars. If I find one that is affordable, I hope I can ship it back to USA. If I have any success, I will let you all know. This quest for M-H rifles can be habit forming.
Ron |
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The Double D |
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Where are you in SA, I know some places you should visit.
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RonHC |
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"Where are you in SA, I know some places you should visit."
I was staying on a farm in the Northwest Province and am now in a Southern suburb of Johannesburg, cleaning the farm residue from my shoes.
I had a field work station in Hlobane, within sight of Rorke's Drift and not far from the Isandlwana catastrophe of the Anglo-Zulu war. I'd be most interested in recommendations of additional sites to visit. Thank You, Ron |
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The Double D |
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Durban is a must, some nice people there, and if you are there on a Sunday morning, I can probably arrange you a shooting session. And. if it's the first
Sunday of the month, a cannon shoot. Much safer than JHB. Have you climbed Majuba yet? Dougie McMasters Museum in Ladysmith is must see. You have to first
find Dougie, then convince him to show you the Museum.
Last Edited By: The Double D
07/12/09 04:51:32.
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Zulu Neil |
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Ron
If you were at Hlobane you should have gone to the summit and seen the devils pass, also the reverse slope looking out toward Ntenyika nek where the border horse were litterally pushed over the edge by the Zulus. Hlobane was a debacle on a mini Isandlwana scale. 2 VC's won on the ascent and on on the descent. The walls the Abuqulisi built to retian their cattle ...and the irregular cavalry on 22.31879 are still there, although the grave to Piet Uys has been dug out. Did you go to Khambula? a magnificent battlefield, the redoubt built by Evelyn Wood is still there and the little cemetary is only a short stroll from the site of the camp, Khambula was the turning poimt of the Anglo Zulu wars, Meyers Drift, scene of the 80ths debacle under the hands of Mbelini or the Prince imperials memorial, all within an hour of Hlobane. if you are in Vryheid, if you can see the television mast them Hlobane summit is worth it, if it is covered in cloud forget it. If you want a guide, go to the Spur Steak ranch restaurant in Vryhied the owner is Sean Freind, an excellent Hlobane guide to the battlefield there, the devils pass is stunning, and to see where Chops Mossop leap is breathaking. For Museums, if you stay in the Rorkes Drift area, it is worth the trek to Mtonjaneni museum near Ulundi, by far the best collection of Anglo Zulu war artefects you will find, however the museum at Talana in Dundee is worth a visit. If you go to Ulundi the site of the Britishsquare is a nice place, it is just past Mangasuto Buthelezi Airport, and while you are in Ulundi, go and visit the site of Cetchwayos kraal, and the Zulu cultural village. For the total battlefield experience, try and stay at Fugitives Lodge at Rorkes Drift, ok, a four hour drive from Joberg but worth it, thier guest house is quite reasonable and in Rob Caskie there is no better guide for Isandlwana, Rorkes Drift and the surrounding area. In the evening you can stroll down (on their reserve) to see Fugitives Drift and the Graves on Lt Teinmouth Melvill VC and Lt Neville Coghill VC 1/24th who died attempting to save their queens colours, thier grave is a lonely place, but surrounded by the magnificence of the Buffalo gorge and the view out to Isandlwana. The sound of the Buffalo river, scene of desperate fighting around 3pm on 22.1.1879 breaks the silence. As for a bona fide Zulu wars Martini, then get to the back of the queue behind me...I am still looking Regards |
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RonHC |
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Zulu Neil,
I am envious of your detailed knowledge of the Hlobane, Isandlwana, Rorke's Drift area. I have only just begun my readings on that particular era of SA history. I am ensconced in a cottage in Bruma Lake - Kensington area of Johannesburg at the moment, after staying at what some say is the first farm settled in the Far West Rand by the trekboers. This is my first SA visit in which I have permitted my spare time to be consumed by work. It looks like I will have little spare time to engage in either historical activities or even visit a game preserve. Eish! However, I will save your recommendations in a word document and use it when I return (November or December, then again in July). Thank you for the valuable lessons. I will commence reading the Anglo-Zulu war books (one by Ian Campbell, if I recall correctly) after I finish Parkenham's book on the Boer War. After all this reading, perhaps I may become the oxymoron - an erudite engineer.
Ron |
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martinibelgian |
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Game? Ithala is pretty close to Vryheid, and worth the visit, even though they don't have the big 5. But it most certainly is very nice indeed... Worth the
stay too.
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Pukka Bundook |
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Ron HC,
Lt Col. Mike Snook's books are some of the best in my opinion, on both Isandlwana and Rorke's drift. Titles are; "how can man die better" and "Like wolves on the fold" I too am very envious of Neils intimate knowlege of the area! Ah well,....... back to haymaking! |
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